I claimed the moons surface back on October 3, 1973 because I felt like it. A few good marguritas will do that. And I claimed it long before any of you did. So there. I WIN.

If you want a piece of my action, let me know and I'll call my real estate agent to arrange a showing at her convenience. Get in line - take a number...........

This has been out for a while. Why is it news now?

Their argument, IIRC, is that the U.S. Government should void any potential claims from folks like the Lunar Embassy, and instead formally grant their group a legal claim to a piece of the Moon about the size of Alaska. They would then sell 'lawful' deeds to raise funds to establish a permanent colony that would be able to tap the resources of a substantial amount of land.

The ultimate problem is not with deeds and claims. The problem is that there is no dispute resolution mechanism for extra-terrestrial torts. If the U.S. government were to formally recognize Mr. Wasser's claims, then the U.S. government would take formal responsibility for all activities at the Moon colony and protecting its right to operate unmolested as noted in the OST, a rather expensive proposition at this time. It's when that freedom to operate undisturbed is violated that things break down, since there's no judge to whom you can plead your case after you destroy the intruding robot that was mucking up your slusher-bucket operations.

Besides, if I'm going to the Moon, I'm not much interested in spending capital on some piece of paper that states I've got the okay to be there according to some guy who has never been there. I've got more important things in which to invest capital like equipment and transport. As things stand, it's first-come, first-served on the Moon.

what is the nonsense about?? planetary bodies out there are the wild west. No one owns them yet and therefore no one, even the US government, has no right to parcel anything to anyone.

He who gets there and plants a flag and makes a claim can then say they own it and no one on Earth who has never been there can say anything about it.
\
I would suggest the 6 apollo sites could be deemed US property but we must be at some level of expiration since they can't go back to defend that claim after 4 decades.\

I encourage private enterprise the find the means and people to go there and plant a stake... I have no problem recognizing their efforts and their right to own a chunk of land there.

Good grief, can't you guys read?

We keep saying we aren't claiming anything because neither we, nor you, nor Dennis Hope, nor anyone else can - yet.

Only an established, permanent Lunar settlement can claim anything and, as you say, none of us are there yet.

Didn't you notice the key phrases in the New York Times article: "... If you lived here, you could sell real estate,.." "... and they point to legal precedents establishing the necessary condition for anyone making a land claim: living there."

What part of "LIVING THERE" can't you understand?

That's the whole point of this: to provide a large enough economic incentive to justify the privately funded, for-profit entrepreneurial space development that space activists have been paying lip service to for years.

To make any land claim you have to establish a true Lunar settlement, with a space line going back and forth, open to all paying passengers.

Real venture capitalists, (as opposed to philanthropists) don't make huge risky investments like that unless they see a way to make commensurate profits, and there is no way to make such huge, quick profits by going to the moon except by being able to sell real estate if you succeed.

Is your claim to the moon based on such a permanent Lunar settlement you've already established that we just haven't heard of yet?

ps: We also suggest that claims be limited to 4% of the moon, not ALL of it.

This is just earthbound silliness. (Besides, *I* own all the rights to the lunar gravitational sphere-of-influence! Keep out!)

Now, as for that Yemeni family who own Mars...

Bob Shaw

I agree with Roger. The Chicoms, Russians and whoever else will lay claim to vast areas to Luna, Mars and what have you.

What happens when the Russians claim to one of Mar's moons?

Something to think about.

Anybody remember a breakfast cereal called "quisp"? It used to have a patch on the back you could cut out, send back, and get a deed for 1 square inch of lunar land. I think somewhere I still have mine.....

I am surprised at the flippant comments regarding this post, including Keith. If you actually read the article you'll find he's not talking about Lunar Embassy novelty claims but real claims to lunar property. Ken, I think he tries to address the problem you identify.

Space is not the wild west right now. The wild west did have laws and courts. The laws were difficult to enforce and often the owner of a legal claim would be dead before anyone knew there was a dispute if he didn't have enough of his own guns. The wild west was part of the United States. Alan is proposing a way to bring law to private space property. It might not be the best solution, but it's a possible solution. Flippant comments like some here don't help.

I assure you, the moon will be all mine just as soon as I find my ULODIUM Q238 SPACE MODULATOR

Marvin

"Regarding Chris Dreyer comments"

Chris I can assure you my comments are not meant to be flippant - I am totally serious - No one here on Earth at this time has any right to dictate who and how the moon or any other body in the solar system can be divided up. HE/SHE who can go there and plant a flag and put up a sustained presense there can claim ownership of the piece of land they can control. Whats flippant in my opinion is anyone proposing rules when they have NO WAY to go and enforce them. Its just chatter - Personally I can't wait until someone has the ability to go build bases and start making claims on land and resources - THEN you will see all the other nations of this planet realize they are missing out and get on with a real space expansion.

Here, here, Roger!
Who is going to stop Russia, China or even Iran from claiming whole sections of Luna, Mars or even Io or the asteroids?
The courts? Ha! It is to laugh.
All the high-minded talk and aerospace laws will mean nothing once any nation declares they own parts of our moon, Mars or any other planet or its moons.

Roger and Mark, you two weren't being flippant and I didn't mean to say that you were. Who is going to stop a nation like Russia, China, or Iran from claiming section of moons, planet, or asteriods? There is the 1967 Outer Space Treaty that is supposed to prevent that. My interest in this is just general curiosity, but I've been following the topic for a couple years. And I actually read Alan's paper. A good point he makes relates to Roger's comments. If a private group were to establish a base on the moon, it is possible that the nations of the world would chose not to recognize their right to occupy that land and use it. If nations would recognize that right now it would help to remove some of the uncertainty of trying to launch such a venture. It may be far off but it is possible to conceive of the notion now.

Of course, anyone who could raise the venture capital to build a space line could go and establish a settlement and claim the land. But that isn't happening, and won't, because there's no way to make enough to pay back investors with a sufficient profit, so no one can raise the needed investments in the first place. But if Earth nations agreed, in advance, to allow a successful settlement to sell real estate deeds to their citizens - back on Earth - that would make it possible to interest investors.

By the way, did you happen to see their view of who's going to defend a settler's property rights? It makes a lot of sense:

http://www.spacesettlement.org/#22

What about defense? Does recognizing a land claim obligate the U.S. military to defend the settlement?

No! U.S. recognition of land ownership means its courts, not its military, must defend ownership. At the most, the U.S. might impose economic sanctions against any aggressor, if there ever were one, which there almost certainly won't be.

Settlements themselves will issue land deeds, settle internal disputes, handle their own internal security and, in later years, their own defenses as needed. But aggression is not going to be the problem it would be on Earth, because it really wouldn't pay economically. Hollywood movies notwithstanding, it really isn't going to be like the Old West because it's so much harder to get to and from the moon, or to hide once you're there.

The dollar value of the land, at least in the early years, is its market value on Earth - its salability to speculators and investors on Earth, - and no one would buy stolen land from someone who is not the recognized owner. So the very act of stealing Lunar land makes it instantly worthless.

It makes overwhelmingly better sense to buy land from the first settlement - which will be eager to sell land and/or provide transportation to and from the Moon at reasonable prices, - than to spend billions building one’s own space line and then waste it mounting a war of aggression to steal already claimed land. Anyone who had such ships could use them to establish a whole new legitimate settlement, rather than fighting to steal some of the 4% of the Moon in the first settlement.

Similarly, on the individual level, early Lunar settlements, unlike old west gold rush mining camps, will not have a problem of stronger neighbors kicking weaker neighbors off their land. That's because the settlement and space line control everyone's access to and from the Moon, as well as everyone’s oxygen and food supply and ability to ship anything back to Earth. The fact that it could, if it had to, stop refilling an unruly settler's oxygen tanks will make it very easy for a settlement's small police force to enforce discipline among individual settlers.

I own the Moon; I bought it at Lunar Properties , fair and squre, so there. I even have a receipt!

But seriously . . .
Basically, ownership of the Moon is up for grabs. The United Nations (UN) drafted a policy prohibiting ownership of all objects in outer space (including planets and Moons) between 1972 and 1979 and this policy was ratified in 1984 by a handful of countries. The UN policy is not taken seriously though because none of the countries with a space program have signed it, therefore the debate about ownership of the Moon and other celestial bodies rages on. See the following links for more information regarding Outer Space property rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Treaty

http://www.space-settlement-institute.org/jalcpr.htm