He's Back

Oh the memories! Was the potrait completed faster, better, cheaper!! :)

That man is humongous.

The 9th floor has a men's room, right?

Was the potrait completed faster, better, cheaper?

No doubt faster, better and cheaper than Constellation.

Even with all the cancellations, he comes out well ahead.

NASA programs occasionally get cancelled. It would be nice in the future if unviable programs got cancelled before they sucked the brains out of the engineers, but concellation is a fact of life at NASA. It didn't destroy NASA in the past, and so I don't see any reason why it would destroy NASA now.

Constellation rhymes with cancellation. Not only will cancelling Constellation not destroy NASA, it will vastly improve it in the future if lessons from it are remembered.

People need to get used to the idea of cancellation, because continuing with Constellation will ultimately destroy NASA.

It has already done almost irrepairable damage to NASA.

Dan Goldin's tenure was unremarkable in that respect.

The shadow to the right of his hands is weird. At first I thought he was holding a Nutter-Butter. :-)

"No doubt faster, better and cheaper than Constellation."

You would hope so, comparing a painting of a person to a pair of launch vehicles and spaceships, but with NASA you never know these days.

They should add a worm logo to his left breast pocket!

Very interesting. Given his recent addition to the Obama transition team perhaps this is in preparation for him becoming Griffin's replacement as administrator.

Um, are half those planets even in our solar system? I recognize Earth & the Moon. But what are those ones behind him, the ones NASA (under his tenure) was supposed to explore?

Um, are half those planets even in our solar system?

They're X-planets. He's going to fill the sky with X-scopes.

Seriously, though, I wonder if the transition team pointed out the lack of suitable reverance of past administrators on the Xth floor. I do sense an attempt at rehabilitation here.

If Mr. Goldin hadn't flamed out so badly in Boston, I'd say bring him back too. Maybe he even offered his services. At the very least he'd make a great department head or a good program manager, and he certainly does have the experience. Once thing he didn't lack was an almost crazed enthusiasm, and a great pride in NASA and its accomplishments, no matter how less than optimal they were in retrospect. I think that his lack of confidence in NASAs abilities in an arena of unknown endeavors was his greatest downfall. If he had been much more aggressive in the incremental conventional launch vehicle arena, we very likely could have gotten an actual prototype second generation launch vehicle out of the deal, instead of two failed suborbital demonstrators. It was that close. That is why two parallel competing efforts and systems almost always yeilds a workable result, and a winner take all contractor death match always results in failure.

Mr. Griffin has done a great job in rehabilitating and redeeming Mr. Goldin's image, as well as the perceived public perception of the space shuttle and space station.

I sense another X-files moment coming after the new year.

Shouldn't Dan be holding a hatchet in one of his hands? After all wasn't he charged with getting NASA to less with less??

This is the man who managed to emasculate NASA more than any other, and try to spin it as something better?

This is the man who managed to emasculate NASA more than any other

More than Bush and Griffin? Surely you jest. He may have been an egotistical maniac, but at least that was tempered with bumbling technological incompetence. He didn't go in with a hairbrained scheme and ram it down people's throats, he muddled through the inevitable result like any good but possibly scatter brained enthusiast. With proper direction and oversight from above, someone with some of the qualities of Dan Goldin, not Mr. Goldin himself, could do very well.

Given our state of technological competence at the time, less was definitely better. Imagine where we would be if we hadn't gone and driven the train off the national rails eight years ago. Imagine an America with confidence and money to spare, waiting for technology to reach a cusp.

I can't speak for you, but I preferred the smooth ride of prosperity even with technological immaturity, than the roller coaster ride we are about to board because of the egotism, arrogance and excesses of this current abusive administration. They now make Mr. Goldin look like a mild mannered professor. And now we are committed to desperate measures in technology and space that may or may not work, not experimental X-plane programs that may or may not work.

We are right back to 1996 in terms of launch vehicle design. The only good thing to be said is we know what doesn't work.

"This is the man who managed to emasculate NASA more than any other,"

No, he revitalized space science. The manned spaceflight and its centers emasculated NASA

"I can't speak for you, but I preferred the smooth ride of prosperity even with technological immaturity, than the roller coaster ride we are about to board because of the egotism, arrogance and excesses of this current abusive administration."

This sounds like typical anti-Bush rhetoric! If it was not for the Bush administration and Griffin then we would have no plans for a Shuttle follow on. Stop mixing up your political hatred for all things Bush and think a little more clearly.

Dan Goldin gave us SFOC which concentrated all shuttle power at JSC. That was a great success wasn't it? At the time of the Columbia accident we were launching less shuttles, using more people, and costing the taxpayers more money than before SFOC. This was a direct result of taking the money from the centers that processed Shuttle and placing it at JSC, which created the current USA monster. Dan was also the one that wanted virtually no NASA involvement in Shuttle since it was "operational". The CAIB report showed the folly of that idea.

So far Mr. Obama has made some pretty smart choices for his economic team that makes me think he ran like a liberal but will govern from the center. Let's hope he continues to make good appointments and is smart enough not to appoint Mr. Goldin which will totally destroy NASA and Constellation.

To Engineering Lead,

You must be a Direct 2.0 junkie. Name one "contingency plan" that has as much design work as Ares I or V. You can't. It doesn't exist. Powerpoint engineering to have Direct 2.0 take the place of Ares I/V is not going to work. I could put as much info into a senior design project as Direct 2.0 has produced.

If you are not a Direct 2.0 Kool Aid drinker then I apologize, but many entries on this site, as well as other sites, by people who bash Constellation are from Direct groupies.

Goldin was a Machiavellian tyrant who openly mocked NASA while he was the Administrator.

It looks like he's praying for forgiveness, but he'll find it hard to come by from those who remember him.

You must be a Direct 2.0 junkie. Name one "contingency plan" that has as much design work as Ares I or V. You can't.

For starters three space shuttles. You aren't going to Mars.

The problem with Constellation supporters is that they are unable to grasp that Constellation is a FAILIRE all across the board. It doesn't matter how much work has gone into it, since it will never fly, that work, whatever of it can't be salvaged for viable contingency plans, is lost. You need to get that fact through your thick skull before you can consider viable contingency plans, of which there are many. You can't even see those multitude of contingency plans, because you are blinded by your pride and denial.

Plan B - the shuttle. Plan C - two EELVs. Forget Orion, it's a failure, get it? Plan D - two COTS vehicles. Forget Orion, it's a failure, get it? Plan E - 14 SSMEs. Forget Orion, it's a failure, get it? I don't even consider Ares I and V in this analysis because they are total failures, get it?

VSE - ditto. Got a plan F? We'd love to hear it.

I'm tired of giving Fs out already anyways.

Reality is a b*t*h, but it works for me.

So you are telling me that the United States of America can't design some lightweight high tech capsules and lifeboats to launch with the rockets we have right now.

If you are burning money for fuel, you're doing something wrong here. This is a one shot deal, you'll blow your wad on this economic bailout, and if that doesn't work, you've got nothing. You better think very hard how you want to INVEST that money, it's a loan from Mr. Guttenburg that one day you will have to pay off with your real estate and your home, if you make the wrong investments and the business plan doesn't pan out like you had intended. Constellation is not even in the running, sorry, but reality has the final word on that.

When people are laughing at you that's generally a big hint.

"...your thick skull..."
"...blinded by your pride and denial."
"...they are total failures, get it?"
"When people are laughing at you that's generally a big hint."

...from an earlier post:
"...delusional..."

You know, EL, a lot of what you write is actually informative, however, it would be much better without the above. Those border on personal attacks. I've been called far worse by far better people, but I have a good sense of humor and a thick skin.

But you have a pattern, and that pattern is to denigrate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs and opinions.
The best part about your pattern is that you emulate Griffin's method of pushing his design on NASA, and you don't ever realize it.

"I'm tired of giving Fs out already anyways."

You must be one heck of a teacher. Perhaps you should investigate a less stressful endeavor?

But you have a pattern, and that pattern is to denigrate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs and opinions.

I don't know where you are located Dave, but where I am located, in the United States of America, I am observing a dysfunctional government hand out trillions of dollars to dysfunctional industries to cover losses from dysfunctional products. I guess I have a inherent right to be disgruntled.

Where is the money going? Who is getting it and why? I am witnessing the greatest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, and you expect me to sit back and make wonderful platitudes?

My comments are mild, trust me. Can you comment on the apparent failure of our space program to field even a credible second generation launch vehicle design napkin after four years and 20 billion dollars? Any comment at all on that? Constellation is a failure. How many people here are willing to admit that, and move on to a vaible Plan F?

What is your plan F, Dave? Everybody here knows my plan E.

If you find yourself in a crowded cubicle with no plan, the only thing I suggest is thinking your way out of the box.

Here's one of many viable plan Fs : White Knight III and IV.

Putting Goldin's photo in the NASA building is not funny. In virtually every way, he was a disaster. I still remember how grown men would hide in the men's room stalls to avoid encountering him at Headquarters. NASA has not recovered it's mojo that we lost while he was on the watch. The shock is that Clinton/Gore, otherwise intelligent men, kept him in that position all those years.

To Engineering Lead,

I second Dave's comments. You sound a bit out of control. "Lighten up Francis":) If you don't know that quote, I suggest you go rent the movie Stripes and have a good laugh.

Putting Goldin's photo in the NASA building is not funny.

I don't think it was meant to be funny. I think it was meant to acknowledge that he was actually a NASA administrator for twelve years. They may be in deep denial, but not that deep.

In virtually every way, he was a disaster.

Let's put this 'Dan Goldin NASA disaster' into a better perspective. This bailout, the result of your dysfunctional government, which is now composed of wealthy corporate sponsored lobbyists and politicians giving free reign to wealthy corporate interests instead of exercising any rational stewardship over the environment and the citizens of this nation, is roughly estimated to have cost you thus far about four trillion dollars, which even adjusted to inflation is estimated to be already on par with the COST OF WORLD WAR II. Ok, so far so good. And what will you get from this historic giveaway to the wealthy? Nobody knows, but if you are lucky, it will earn you the priveledge of returning to work on Monday morning. That's all they can give you.

Now think of the kind of space program that you could buy for four trillion dollars, if that money was invested in the innovators and movers and shakers of the space industry, instead of more NASA bureaucrats and wealthy corporate interests and their cadre of lobbyists and paid politicians.

Now what were you saying about Dan Goldin again? NOTHING you say about Dan Goldin is going to change the fact that his tenure is insignificant within the scope of present reality.

Let's look at this a little closer now. A few months ago any proposal for an extra billion or two for NASA to speed up an already completely failed and dysfunctional rocket program, (Constellation) was literally laughed off the table. My how quickly things change. Now, a couple billion a year is chump change, and they trump this as the savior and solution to YOUR Constellation problem, as if suddenly Constellation is the best workable solution to all of your multi-trillion dollar solvancy problems. It's a distraction, get it?

Anything to keep the rube's minds off the problems. So turn on that TV, there are important football games to watch. In a few months hence you will be looking back at the Goldin era as the 'Golden Years', that's how out of touch with reality any Goldin bashing is in light of your true problem.

Your problem is YOU. Dan Goldin had nothing to do with it. Your problem is that you need a real space program to solve your real problems, but you're giving the money away to people who are simply going to disappear off the horizon. And then you have the gaul to criticize someone who is long gone, had nothing to do with the problems, and when it comes right down to it, for all his weird foibles, while not a particularly good asset to the agency, certainly didn't do it much harm, not even within an order of magnitude the harm which will be done to your nation if you choose to proceed with a program and ludicrous and dysfunctional as the Vision for Space Exploration and 'Constellation'. I'm actually embarrassed to have to point this out to anyone. I certainly don't have to explain it to any of the true space activists that I know of. The only conclusion I can come to, is that you don't have the faintest idea what space is all about. And yet you still buy into the most flimsy of arguments.

Any suggestion that an additional two bills a year for NASA is going to change the metric, is as laughably ridiculous as the suggestion that 'Dan Goldin' is relevant to anything.

If you're going to invest in a space program, invest in a real space program, not a despot's imaginary wet dream. And give it the trillion or so dollars that it truly deserves. Then you just might have a chance of redeeming yourselves, and salvaging the unnecessary problems of your own design.

This ain't 1992. We have a considerably better handle on what the problems really are, and what is to be avoided. This is precisely why they are back pedalling on the bailout investments as fast as they can. Anyone can see just how ineffective giving money away is, compared to investing it. What we are most concerned about now is NOT giving the money away, and investing it in a manner which will give the greatest return, because our lives depend on that return.

VSE and Constellation don't even make it into consideration. And if somehow they do make it in, there is no helping you.

I live near Pittsburgh, EL. It was still located within the boundaries of the U.S. the last time I looked.

You make salient commentary on more than one front. The current financial situation has been caused by a mass failure to remember the history of the causes of the Great Depression by those who began to remove the banking industry regulations that were crafted in the wake of that event. Andrew Mellon was the Secretary of the Treasury, and he advocated allowing the banks to fail. They did. Now, the powers that be are saving the banks, but allowing the automotive industry to fail.

Your blood pressure is getting close to be able to measure it in bars...there is not a thing you can do about this.

My "great idea" was to reverse engineer the Saturn V and Apollo craft because they, like the Soyuz, have a history and are well-known. Why is Constellation a failure? From everything I've read about it, it is the product of a faulty design process being driven by egos rather than solid engineering and the laws of physics. Flaws are being glossed over instead of being admitted to and being corrected. Four years and $20B? To use a well digger's analogy, sometimes you get a dry hole no matter how far you drill or how much money you spend. As much as I liked the X-33, no amount of money could fix its fundamental flaws. So, we're stuck with the STS for the next 18 months or so.

By your writings, would it be a good assumption to assume that you do work in the space program? I work in industrial controls and instrumentation, and have been doing this work for 30 years. I also train apprentices.

At age 53, I have learned a small bit of wisdom. Change the things you can change, learn what things you cannot change, and don't allow them to ruin your objectivity.

You mentioned Alaska governor Palin in a previous message. It might interest you to know that I chose to not vote in the recent election, mainly because no one was mentioning anything about reinstating the banking industry rules that created over 50 years of relative stability in the industry.

Yes, you most certainly do have a right to be disgruntled. Please don't take it out on those who are not as well connected with the program as you seem to be.

You don't like the government bailing out the banks, yet you seem to advocate ("Here's one of many viable plan Fs : White Knight III and IV.") giving government money to unproven private companies. At least Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, North American, etc., were able to prove that they could deliver more than "concepts" with the taxpayer's dollars. Why haven't Bill Gates and Warren Buffett stepped up and invested?

Be gentle with those of us who are on the outside looking in. You know things we don't, and by and large, we appreciate your efforts.

Be gentle with those of us who are on the outside looking in. You know things we don't, and by and large, we appreciate your efforts.

Actually, that was directed mostly at the Dan Goldin bashing Constellation supporting posters, not you. Glad you enjoyed my rant, though, a full stomach on Thanksgiving really gets the thoughts flowing. If I offended anyone, I apologize.

All we can do is sit back and see how this plays out, and in the spirit of the Web 2.0.3 world, comment, or even better, go out there and get a job in the Space 2.0.4 industry.

Something has to CHANGE, and all we can do is HOPE that the President Elect 'gets it'. Hope doesn't usually work, but change very often does. I'm not opposed to NASA trying difficult and challenging things, but from my perspective right now, difficult and challenging is propulsion and launch vehicles, not a premature breakout from prison Earth.

One has to adequately prepare for those things, in order to save as many of the inmates as possible, and not to destroy the prison. We might just have to convert it to a hospital.

My opinion is that a trillion dollars should be adequate.

It should have concentric circles to be used as a dart board. Outer circle titled paranoid, next ring titled bi-polar, inner circle titled narcissistic.