Hey JSC: ARC Has A Centrifuge You Can Use (update)

Sounds like someone wanted to buy a new toy.

Oh, but this isn't the only human rated centrifuge created by NASA. In their infinite wisdom, and (at the time) apparent endless funding stream, they had one built and installed at University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. Sad to say that this one has been all but put out of comission as well. Only so much one can do with human centrifuges, unless of course you are Dan Akroid.

Because

JSC/CxP do not want to fund facilities that NASA has at it's field centers.

Another examples of ESMD/CxP wasting time and money creating needless paper when this exact study has been conducting over and over again for the spaceshuttle on countless items humans and hardware.

Might as well call the IG for wasting NASA funds creating a information and market study.

Maybe they want ARC to respond to the JSC call then they can think ARC works for JSC instead of both field centers working for the space agency.

next thing you will see is a request for a launch pad and modal test facilities.

I can only hope all the BS goes away when Bolden gets the green flag, however the HSF commission should be made aware of the rather child like behavior JSC is showing.

They need a new one because the one at Ames doesn't shake your fillings out like Ares I is going to.

Obviously, the expected loads in Orion on an Ares I are beyond the ARC centrifuge's capabilities!

Hahahahaha!

Anyone who has been around NASA knows that whatever JSC wants: JSC gets.

Not too long ago, JSC wanted their own Neutral Bouyancy Simulator (NBS) since apparently the one at MSFC was in the wrong Congressional District Well...after numerous JSC studies indicated that more NBS capability was needed, NASA built a brand new one at JSC. After it was up and running, lo and behold...new studies showed that NASA now had excess and duplicitous capabilities, so the NBS at MSFC was shut down.

Keep our eye out for a new centrifuge at JSC.

Go ahead and call the IG, I'm sure they would like to take it for a spin.

As has been pointed out, the one at ARC can easily provide the steady state acceleration, but not the acceleration transients and high amplitude vibration Ares is expected to generate.

And what about the centrifuge at Goddard?

GSFC has a larger centrifuge, rated at 30G and 5000lbs. Pictures can be found online. In my personal experience, ESMD/CxP sometimes avoids using existing facilities and capabilities at the more 'robotic mission' centers like GSFC, JPL and ARC. These centers do have some manned space flight work experience.

Obviously, the expected loads in Orion on an Ares I are beyond the ARC centrifuge's capabilities!

If this is the case. The Humans will be harmed/dead long before they reach orbit

However it could be they want to test a new force called accelertation its kinda like acceleration but is has no funding.

Well, if you read their request for information, one of the things they are specifically asking for is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). Could it be that the centrifuge at ARC doesn't meet all the requirements that JSC needs for Orion?

Aw, that's no fun... Let's keep making assumptions and criticizing JSC for things we don't have all the information for...

here a pic of one used for Apollo

Maybe a new one needs to be on steroids:

http://www.nasaimages.org/luna/servlet/detail/nasaNAS~7~7~32650~136517:View-of-new-centrifuge-at-Flight-Ac
Collection:
NASA Johnson Space Center Collection
Title:
View of new centrifuge at Flight Acceleration Facility
Description:
View of the new centrifuge at the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC), located in the Flight Acceleration Facility, bldg 29. The 50-ft. arm can swing the three man gondola to create g-forces astronauts will experience during controlled flight and during reentry. The centrifuge was designed primarily for training Apollo astronauts.
Date Taken:
1966-01-20

Not so long ago. PDR for Ares, Hanely and Cook decided CxP would never ever need any test equipment such is this. The crew is already trained and does need any thing like this.

I thought about 12 g's was the limit for humans but realize it is also dependent upon the direction of the force on the body.

>>a new force called accelertation its kinda like acceleration but is has no funding.

Snort! Crap, there goes another coffee over the keyboard. :)

Proof reading is obviously a lost art...

Paul

So, it sounds like NASA JSC currently owns, maintains, and operates the centrifuge at JSC. Is that a fact? I ask since ya’ll put in a picture and video of it spinning.

If so, is NASA JSC requesting themselves for information on how it performs? If so, someone sitting there with a stopwatch and a tape measure obviously already knows the answer.

The solicitation appears to be merely the initial step in a new direction that addresses the vibration issue with Orion. They appear to want to show everyone that they have a way to physically simulate the vibration on people so they can design an effective vibration countermeasure system. More power to them. I believe it could be reliably fixed, however at a cost. Wanting to fix something means they acknowledge the vibration issue indeed exists and could very well be the straw that breaks the Ares-I’s back.

"If this is the case. The Humans will be harmed/dead long before they reach orbit"

Not necessarily - I was referring to the transient loads although I also agree with the perspective that JSC wants their own local toy too...

Not sure how you simulate short term g-load peaks that you would see in the Ares I - is the drop tower at Glen big enough for a seat with shock absorbers???

this thread would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

why can't we all just stop the BS and work with each other to make these things happen.

JSC is the big elephant and sometimes does dumb things, but a little truth is in order too.

The centrifuge at JSC was decommissioned and removed 40 years ago. The Weightless Environment Training Facility (WETF) was put in its place. That pool was logically put at JSC because that is where the crews are located and where 99% of the training takes place. The value of the MSFC facility was greatly limited by its distance. It was also above ground, with significant maintenance and safety implications.

The NBL out at Sonny Carter Training Facility was built so that the training for ISS could use much larger mockups and special facilities. It, like the WETF, is below ground.

@observer

While working in the Orbital Space Plane program in 2004/5, I found a 1963 document on a centrifuge test that took the subjects on a simulated 20 G entry profile. They all did fine. They could even operate a thumb wheel and read a display throughout.

NASA used this study to update the human rating standard which basically say 20Gs is OK for an abort or an emergency entry.

I also agree with other people's comments that jerk may be a problem due to an abort at Ares'es god awful 1100 psf dynamic pressure ascent. The Ames centrifuge may not be able to jerk the crew as much as an Ares abort will.

This was only a Request For Information - it has been cancelled as of today "Chill"

@Getta Life, Only if Mike Griffin did not Cancel Life Sciences, the fire is just starting.

@Danny

what do you think about this:
Symptoms Due to Whole-Body Vibration and the Frequency Range at which They Usually Occur (Adapted from Rasmussen, 1982).
Symptoms Frequency (Hz)
General feeling of discomfort 4-9
Head symptoms 13-20
Lower Jaw symptoms 6-8
Influence on speech 13-20
“Lump in throat” 12-16
Chest Pains 5-7
Abdominal pains 4-10
Urge to urinate 10-18
Increased muscle tone 13-20
Influence on breathing movements 4-8
Muscle contractions 4-9

Effects of Vibration on the Body

A number of factors modify the effects of vibration on humans, including tissue resonance, duration of exposure, individual variations, and other simultaneous environmental stresses. For example, acceleration increases the body's rigidity, reducing its shock-absorbing properties and increasing the transmission of vibration energy to the internal organs (Antipov, Davydov, Verigo, & Svirezhev, 1975#. The effects of vibration on the body are determined by the frequency ranges involved.

Effects at less than 2 Hz. Vibrations in the frequency range of 0.1 to 0.7 Hz most often produce motion sickness in humans. Vibrations of 1 to 2 Hz are generally associated with increases in pulmonary ventilation, heart rate, and sweat production above that level considered normal for any other stress present.

Effects from 2 to 12 Hz. Tolerance in this frequency range is usually limited by substernal or subcostal chest pain, with thresholds at approximately 1 to 2 Gz and 2 to 3 Gx. The etiology of the pain is the same for both axes of vibration:displacement of the abdominal and thoracic viscera induces stretching of the chest wall, with torsion at the costochondral junctions of the ribs. Dyspnea is the second most common symptom in this range, apparently with the same etiology as chest pain. Centrally induced hyperventilation can be produced by vibrations around two axes at acceleration amplitudes above 0.5 G in the range of 1 to 10 Hz.

Cardiovascular effects are maximized in Gz+gz #i.e. a Gz-acceleration environment with interposing +gz vibration# at 3 to 6 Hz and in Gx+gx at 6 to 10 Hz. The changes seen are increases in heart rate, arterial blood pressure, central venous pressure, and cardiac output; these are accompanied by a corresponding decrease in peripheral resistance. These changes all resemble nonspecific exercise responses.

Abdominal discomfort and testicular pain are common complaints due to stretching of viscera and force applied to the spermatic cord, respectively.

The headache commonly associated with this frequency range has several explanations. In a Gz+gz environment, the mechanical forces are not well attenuated by the skeletal system. In a Gz+gz environment, the head is forced out of phase with the headrest and repeatedly impacts against it. In Gx+gy environments, the problem is the same only more so; strain, spasm, and soreness of the neck are added to the symptoms.

Finally, bloody stools, transient albuminuria, and transient hematuria are occasionally seen in helicopter pilots flying heavy schedules. Such symptoms are attributed to vibration, and they usually disappear after a few days rest.

Effects above 12 Hz. In these frequencies, there is more concern about effects on performance #vision, speech, fatigue) than about injuries.

I guess the ARES crew will do just fine so says CxP!

I was on a tour of Godard recently which included the centrifuge room. It looked in poor condition, the room was leaking and full of equipment. The tour guide said that it wasn't used much and that it used so much power that it caused problems on the local electrical grid. I'm don't think it was built with manned testing in mind.

I like things that spin. LOL!