What Would Wernher Do?

"The confusion and the embarrassment caused to you was probably again a result of lack of communication at HQ."

Yes, not much has changed. We were lucky to have made it to the moon.

What Would Wernher Do?

They say his only problem was budgets because on his 1st rocket program he never had to pay his engineers. But he could get results.

I suspect he would reduce the number of managers, make everyone accountable, embrace change in design as dedicated by engineering truth, punish ethical problems and invite a very large number of NASA people to join private industry. It’s important to always embrace ground truth. He did, now days we don’t.

That’s what made vB a great leader.

Never had to pay his engineers?

Huh.

Also, back in the day, never had to pay his (slave) labor, thousands of whom died so that civilians in London could be terrorized. Lest we forget.

I expect, had RIFWatch and the rest of the Net existed back then, it would have been FAR more difficult to get to the moon. Hard enough to manage your disputes privately...

Our Good/Bad luck in the space race was the result of the work of a dedicated man who had one goal for his life. The problem with Wernher von Braun was the fact that he never was held accountable for the crimes against humanity in which he was involved. This is a subject that is very difficult for me to talk about. My Grand Uncle worked with V.B. daily during the 50's & 60's. I am proud of the accomplishments of that era, and am very proud of My country's accomplishments in human space flight, and space science. I find Myself in a hypocritical position sometimes praising the managment style and results of V.B..

To Quote Tom Lehrer:

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown.
"Ha, Nazi Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Carl

Please, von Braun was a pure-hearted visionary genius. Tom Lehrer was a clown!

The comment about "reducing management and improving accountability" is hard to implement simply because it takes a fair amount of "management" to handle the "accountability" issue.

That being said...

Combining Management Theory (I'm not sure that "Management Practice" is not oxymoronic) and Game Theory:

"Leadership concentrates on maximizing gains, management obsesses on minimizing losses."

Managers like to have bean counters around to keep things under control...

Political accountability is something else, however. The NASA/LockMart CAN that CANcelled the X-33 after p!ssing away huge wads of money... though that died 'cuz there was too much emergent technology in the X-33. DC-X was started by BMDO and died because they only had one flight article. (An "X" program really needs more than one flight article, but, then, that's cost-cutting, isn't it?)

@ they did what???

From one who has been involved in all NASA launch vehicle developments, you are right on. That is exactly what he would have done and is what needs to be done today.

As much as we pine for good ol' days, where budgets were good and real pioneers lead, those conditions do not exist right now. Face it, "He's dead, Jim."

Instead, based on what we have TODAY, what are the best steps toward "sustaining preeminence in air and spaceflight"? ... toward ensuring the survival of Humanity?

Here are my perspectives toward just the first part of that question, "What do we have to work with?"

GOOD:
- Fantastic returns from Hubble, Mars rovers, outer planet probes, etc.
- Continually improving cost-effectiveness and ability of robotics and communication (from outside NASA too).
- ISS functioning in orbit, with real international partners.
- Entrepreneurial launch and joy ride companies emerging.
- 'Predictable' NASA budget ($19B/yr in 2009 dollars).
- Other nations sponsoring their own space agencies (sharing the load for humanity's future).
- Science and technology continue to advance - where nourished.

BAD:
- NASA Budget/Assignments is mismatched by $5B/yr (2009$).
- Space exploration is no longer groovy.
- Aeronautical industry hurting.
- Not enough aerospace jobs, even if students inspired to pursue them.
- Humanity's survival could be threatened by asteroids, changes in our environment (incl magnetic poles), lack of international peace, etc.

UGLY:
- America's space program is a "mature" organization.
- NASA research (the path to improving abilities) was shut down to recapture old glory ("Apollo on steroids" with "Apollo on "food stamps").

UNKNOWN:
- Is the urge to finish the unfunded grand visions now blinding us from seeing more productive paths?
- Whose data can we trust when deciding how to move forward? (deleting the self-serving sales pitches in favor of sage wisdom for the broader good).
- Who are today's pioneers?
- What groups have returned the most progress for the least investments?

My thoughts for the day.

Von Braun at one point was arrested and placed in jail awaiting execution for following his goal of space travel more so than the goal of V-2 development. He was spared by the efforts of General Dornburger who convinced Hitler that he was crucial to the rocket development program for Germany. Von Braun was not very good or committed as a NAZI. Further more, if Von Braun had not worked for the Nazis, he would have been lost to history and would not have contributed to United States rocket development programs.

As for looking at Von Braun's notes and attempting to understand his thinking and methods, this is a really good idea. If the good is foolishly thrown out with the bad then we are going to loose and a lot. Von Braun's intellectual style, dedication to goals, personal and managerial discipline were extraordinary, and crucial to the successful completion of the Apollo program.

Just a thought, but it may be better to not to consider difficult periods in history with simplistic black and white thinking. Alas, this type of decision making seems to be endemic.

In the downloadable PDF has a interesting note about B-70 "Valkyrie" as a space launch vehicle (March 19, 1965). I can see it now: Richard Branson or Elon Musk make arrangements with the Russians to use TU-144 SST as a launch vehicle for small rockets.

Isn't there a history lesson here?

Seriously speaking he would be beaten by the bureaucracy and would retire. That is what actually happened!

Shortly after that NASA scrapped its heavy lift rocket, lost the ability to enter space, and abandoned its space station.

Wait that sounds familiar. Eerily familiar. Especially the part I left out, about building a complicated new space system, only one part of which got built, and which stuck us in low earth orbit for 40 years.

Humans are flawed. We're doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past... and also the successes...

"Just a thought, but it may be better to not to consider difficult periods in history with simplistic black and white thinking. Alas, this type of decision making seems to be endemic."

Precisely what my comment was trying to do. Who knows what the thousands worked to death at Peenemünde could have accomplished, had they been permitted to lead normal lives. How is it even possible to weigh this against the fact that a few men walked on the moon? I'm sure I can't.

There are enough people around RIFWatch trumpeting Von Braun's accomplishments, which I don't think I'm minimizing. Adding context. Which is critical.

From his start as a teenager, he wanted only one thing, to build rockets that went into outerspace. It was clear, even during his time at Peenemunde that his goal was manned space flight.

In the note we see above another German engineer is mentioned -- Mr. Puttkamer -- this is undoubtedly Jesco von Puttkamer who in 1960 sent a telegram to von Braun about employment -- von Braun reply was "don't go to industry STOP come to Huntsville STOP we are going to the moon STOP Wernher von Braun.

So even before Gagarin, before Kennedy put America on a path to the moon, Wernher was already going there. This shows his vision more then any single thing I can think of.

We can argue about his past for ages -- one only has to read Nuefeld's "the rocket and the reich" and Wards "Dr. space" to see these differences in their proper perspective, but in the end he remained a visionary -- and these types are few and far between.

During his surrender to the Americans at the end of the war, he arrived with a couple of hundered engineers and technicians. When asked about them Wernher was able to give the questioner not only their names, but their skills and what they were best at.

So besides a visionary he was also a grand manager, one who understood people well enough to place them in positions where they could use their skills properly and help advance the cause -- manned space flight.

We need another like him today.

Kevin Cousineau

"Science without conscience is the death of the soul", said Rabelais.
That Von Braun did not design the final solution is a sure fact. That he willfully worked for the NAZI regime, benefited greatly from it in terms of social and professional promotion, was aware of the slave labor used to build his cherrished weapons, all while having the possibility to leave Germany for most of the time, are also facts as well established.
Either Von Braun espoused the ideas of the NAZIs, or he turned a blind eye on it to benefit from the situation. He was either too gifted for "realpolitik", or an engineer without ethics.
In either case, he hardly qualifies as a role model that NASA should be proud of.

He would try to get a very large SIMPLE Lox/Kerosine
booster built to get the job done simply and reliably

@Denis.
If your a late 50's politician, with an electorate howling mad over Russia and ready to roll you and your colleagues heads, one more warcrimes trial wont save your bacon. Neither will it square your nation with the Russians (who had their own German scientists with captured equipment, and none of our scruples against using Nazi tech).

The machinery Von Braun helped to develop not only delivered this nation from a cold war defeat. Its helped to save and improve millions of lives around the globe in ways few other projects ever did.

Whatever crimes he may have been guilty of, consider his penance repaid.

What I think needs more review tho is the years after Apollo 11. When the fear was gone and Von Braun struggled to turn us from flag&footprint missions to longer lasting infrastructure projects. Shuttles, bases, habitats for working class spacemen, etc... This is the future that never came to pass.

We need to understand why NASA lost traction at the height of its power. Why people lost interest in the high frontier so quickly, and how we can regain our audience.

> We need to understand why NASA lost traction at the height of its power. Why people lost interest in the high frontier so quickly

JFK died and JFK was the only reason normal people cared in the first place.

The nerds always care, but it takes a charismatic president to make normal people care. Interest in the space program petered off steadily after JFK's message.

Mmmm....actually von Braun was a major in the SS reserves. He was jailed because he wouldn't go along with Himmler's efforts to have the SS take over the rocket program from the Army. The whole putting spaceflight first was a nominal reason for his arrest.

A somewhat brave act. Was it loyalty to the Army? A belated realization of the monstrous nature of the SS and Hitler's regime? Probably both. It came very late in the game, after he was thoroughly compromised.

Max, not sure what penance you are referring to, VB was doing work here that fulfilled (at least partially) his life long dreams. Also not sure what you mean by "delivered this nation from a cold war defeat". If you mean the moon race, sure VB was central to that... if you are referring to ballistic missiles, the Redstone, although first, was quickly obsoleted by solid fuel missiles that he had little to do with.

Based on my recent read of Neufeld's bio, Mickey seems closest to the mark with regard to his SS arrest...

Reference
http://www.astronautix.com/astros/dorerger.htm

Bibliography: Launius, Roger D, NASA Chief Historian, NASA History Office Home Page, Web Address when accessed: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/index.html.

15 March 1944 - V-2 problems begin to be understood - but Peenemuende Rocket Team leaders arrested by SS. The cause of early detonation of the warhead during the engine burn time is understood, but the crashes at the end of the trajectory are still a mystery. Dornberger is ordered to report to Hitler at Berchtesgaden. The call is received at 7 pm in the evening, following a bomb raid and ice storm. Dornberger is told that on the following morning Von Braun, Riedel II, and Groettrup are to be arrested for sabotage of the A4 program. Groettrup selects Dr Steinhoff as his representative. The men are accused of not putting all their energy in development of the A4 as a weapon - instead only using the financing of the Reich to support their private plans for manned spaceflight. Dornberger know he cannot complete the program without these men - Von Braun and Riedel were the key leaders, and Groettrup was head of the electrical systems section. Dornberger finally achieves their release by demonstrating to the SS that the biggest impediment to the program was Hitler's dream that the A4 would never reach London. After a few days in detention, Von Braun was moved to Schwedt, and then freed. The others were allowed out a bit later.

To this day, in every totalitarian state, a high level scientist/engineer either agrees to be a party member or loses the opportunity to practice his or her profession, possibly faces imprisonment of self or a firing squad. This debate about von Braun's ethics are tiresome, a trifle smug from one's safe armchair perspective and quite frankly irrelevant to the subject matter.

Wilhelm, VB applied under his own volition to the SS cavalry in Nov. 1933 when he was a 21 year old university student... at the time I believe Germany was still theoretically a republic, although that ended in 1934. He quit the SS in 1934 when he graduated from the university, and then while working for the army joined the Nazi party in Nov. 1937 under pressure. He then rejoined the SS in May 1940, after they courted him briefly. He was arrested in March 1944 shortly after rebuffing Himmler's invitation to do rocket development under SS auspices rather than army. Albert Speer apparently was instrumental in gaining his release going directly to Hitler. VB didn't institute the practice of using prisoner slave labor for V-2 production, but he was aware of the prisoner's condition, didn't strenuously object to the practice, and was involved in it at some level... apparently he helped select prisoners from Buchenwald.

Those are the facts as we currently know them (at least according to Neufeld's bio). What it says about the man is open to question...

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the whole thing... I do think Lehrer's lyrics get at a certain truth, but certainly VB was not unique on either side of the war.

Wernher von Braun and his rocket team ( including his American team members and support contractors) were first class engineers and technicians, He was a true champion for space exploration and a very skilled leader and manager. I do not believe he will be replaced, nor anyone approach his unique combination of attributes that were directly applied to the development and operations of the Saturn and Skylab programs. I worked with the team at ABMA for four years ( I was the Project Engineer on the Saturn 1/1B H-1 rocket engine) and we certainly were involved with many concepts for supporting space travel before NASA/MSFC was activated. THe Saturn 1 was initiated and LEO Space Villages, the Project Horizon Moon Base, a Large Space Telescope, Astronaut Jet Packs, Pressurized "Bottle Suits" and many other innovative designs for large rockets and space ships were considered and some development accomplished.

In summary, the fields of space science, technology and systems design owe a tremendous debt to Wernher von Braun and we went to the Moon on his shoulders.

My guess is that if Hitler had been a bit smarter (i.e., not invaded Russia), his Nazi forces might have been impossible to dislodge from the occupied nations. The Nazi rule might have continued for decades - maybe even to today.

And what would Wernher have done? Probably have continued along developing nuclear-tipped ICBMs, put the first satellite into orbit, and led the effort to plant the Nazi flag on the moon. All with regard for the morals of his bosses.

If vB had live he would have been sent back to Germany by 1980 just like his boss. He was a great leader, he had keen insights and understanding of people and engineering.

To settle vB’s role in making V-1/V-2 read “History of the Dora camp”. It was written by some one who built (as in slave labor) V-2’s for vB.

The US milked vB for every bit of ability he had and when he was of no longer any use, sent him off. By my standard better than he deserved.
As I once said to a son of a German rocket pioneer “Wow both of our kin worked on V-2’s, just on different sides of the barbwire”.

He’s gone, let him rest. His accomplishments sit on public display @ JSC/KSC/MSFC – Saturn V). His crimes (if any) are between him and Jesus (yes vB was saved).

Hello,

Wernher von Braun still invited me in 1975 to come to the US and to learn something reasonable. OK, I didn’t go, but that had nothing to do with him self. He was a very honest man and as a student did not realize that he took the tail of a tiger. His motivation was to realize a dream and no one in the civil world gave him the sources to do so. He was a real rocket engineer. If you have a rocket on the pad, you may have 3 percent payload. If your rocket weights a bit more, you will just have a big paperweight, nothing a lawyer, an economist, a management expert can realize. The other point is, Von Braun had the opportunity to learn from one project to the other. That is why he could realize Apollo. Today, each constructer seems to get only one shot. No one is a wizard.

Mickey, it is strange you are playing the what if game.

What if Hitler had never come to power?

What if Japan REALIZED that their Navel code had been broken and ambushed our fleet at Midway, instead of us ambushing their fleet? Then there would have been NO early turning point in the pacific war. Would we have then accepted a negotiated peace with Japan?

What if American pilots refused to fire bomb Japanese cities?

When we start with what if, almost anything becomes possible.

Till we are put in that position, who would say what we would do.

Was Von Braun necessary for the success of Apollo?

I think it is arguable he was not.

Given the success of Atlas and Titan (neither of which had anything to do with ABMA) and the obvious abilities of aerospace program managers who were not part of the ABMA organization (Bossart, Schreiver, and Raborn come to mind), I think it is a reasonable inference that if Von Braun et al had all been killed along with Thiel at Peenemunde, the US still would have beaten the Soviets to the Moon, and for the same reasons: the inability of the Soviets to concentrate their limited resources, and the ability of the US to provide and allocate sufficient resources to multiple programs simultaneously.

Obviously, the USAF's ICBM programs and the USN's SLBM programs provide perfect examples, but the prime example is, of course, the Manhattan Project, which produced not one but two operational weapon systems in a crash program, complimented by the USAAF's long-range heavy bomber program, which produced both the Boeing B-29 and the Convair B-32, and both of them in time to carry either one of the weapons...

Von Braun was an excellent program manager, but arguably not any better or worse than any number of Americans and Soviets (and, for that matter, several other Germans and various Britons and Frenchmen.)

He did have the advantage while working for Nazi Germany of having a command economy more or less at his disposal (unlike Robert Goddard, for example) and while working for ABMA and NASA, almost unlimited resources (unlike Milt Rosen at NACA or Sergei Korolev - much less his British and French counterparts).

Somebody must be planning a VB movie.......

He's definitely an interesting enough character.

As long as the movie fairly portrays the Dora workers experience as well as VB & co. own experiences & the moral complexities thereof, it should be a very compelling story.

But, I thought VB was just the PR guy - that Max Faget (think that's the name?) was the real brains behind Apollo design success & Shuttle design?

NASA folks seem to forget about Theodore Von Karman who was the chief scientist for the military missile program. In fact, the first Army missile lab that was founded by Von Karman eventually became the Jet Propilsion Lab. He then founded Aerojet to build JATO rockets leading to much larger rockets and rocket engines.

Von Karman's Caltech students would eventually became the lead engineers for the military. I am convinved that the reason that von Braun was available to lead this country's fledging civil rocket program was that the military never completely trusted him or his loyalties.

While working in civil space programs, von Braun flourished; however, we should never dismiss the fact that he was an SS officer that supervised slave labor. He was responsible for weapons that terrorized the people of London. If von Braun had been caught earlier, his crimes would have merited execution.

I am ashamed of the posters who easily dismiss his role in the SS. While von Braun was brilliant and effective, the lack of a moral compass should disqulaify him from being a role model for engineers of today.

„Was Von Braun necessary for the success of Apollo?“

Why the US R&D did never managed such a balance on a tightrope before and after von Braun?

“I am ashamed of the posters who easily dismiss his role in the SS. While von Braun was brilliant and effective, the lack of a moral compass should disqulaify him from being a role model for engineers of today.“

There is a lot of moral outrage of people never experienced such circumstances. Perhaps he needed more courage to hold the tail of the tiger than go to prison and being executed. He knew him self that there was nothing to excuse him.

Von Karman and the GALCIT/JPL/Aerojet group (including Frank Malina) were propulsion specialists; early on they did both liquid and solid fuel engines, although Rocketdyne gradually took over most of the liquid fuel programs. Aerojet did the engines for Titan; Rocketdyne did the engines for Atlas; Charlie Bossart, at Convair, did the spaceframe design that led to Atlas. Titan was a more conventional spaceframe design by Martin. The engines and the spaceframes were integrated by Bernie Schriever at Western Missile Division.

Faget was a spacecraft designer (as in the capsules, not the launch vehicles).

Bernard Schreiver and William Raborn were project/program managers - which was (sort of) Von Braun's role for Jupiter/Juno (although John Medaris had as much to do with that program's success as Von Braun, and the same for Saturn.)

Von Braun never paid or was made to answer for his war crimes, so I don't see how he can be absolved of anything.

Should we celebrate Hitler for his art? Maybe we can celebrate bin Laden for his ability to manage his people.

It is disturbing that the US gov't was willing to look the other way in order to employ war criminals, and it's disturbing that so many today have the same mentality.

Kindly study the conditions under which the Paperclip Scientists were working at Fort Bliss/White Sands or better still, go see these for yourself. Their labour was intensive, grueling hours without many holidays or Saturdays off and decaying Quanset Huts for housing themselves and their families. All of this they did cheerfully,without any slacking, regarding themselves as Prisoners of Peace. There is no need to be ashamed, their record and accomplishments speak for themselves. Again it is easy to criticize from one's armchair.

One thing could be said of Von Braun. if he said it was go for launch, it was going to work. If he said "No go" Then you didn't go. Shepherd could have beaten Gagarin into space but a realy malfuntioned on a test launch and it was Von Braun who said "No go!" He insisted on at least one flawless flight before puttin a man in the capsule. Even the Astronauts themsleves were screaming for a "Go!" But on Braun sttod his ground and Gagarin became the first man in Space. This might appear to have been a mistake on Von Brauns part but it was this mentality which produced the flawless performance of the Saturn series of rockets.
Had Von Braun been in charge, both Columbia and Challenger would not have happened.

We are here thanks to many accidents of history. V.B. will always be historically significant to spaceflight.

Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

I did not mean to start a brush fire with the Tom Lehrer comment. I recognize the Tom is a clown, but sometimes in quick wit we are spur to think.

We stand on the shoulders of the many that came prior to us in this mission to explore beyond the biosphere/Gravity well. We sometimes need to remind ourselves that some of those shoulders had feet in wet clay. Please remember so we do not repeat the mistakes/misdeeds that are found via historical research.

Now it is time to solve the problems of today, and leave the dead to rest.......or eternal torment.

Carl

"Was Von Braun necessary for the success of Apollo?
I think it is arguable he was not.
Given the success of Atlas and Titan (neither of which had anything to do with ABMA) .... "

Atlas was powered by engines developed by Rocketdyne. One of the first steps taken by the newly created NAA rocket engine group (that eventually became Rocketdyne) was to meet with von Braun at Fort Bliss, to hire Dieter Hunzel from von Braun's team, and to get two A-4 engines shipped to Los Angeles. NAA was test firing its own 75Klb thrust engine by 1950, years before it would have otherwise.

Kraemer's "Rocketdyne" history says it this way: "Whatever one's views of his political involvement in Germany, no one can deny that the arrival of von Braun and the captured V-2s in the United States marked a major milestone and beginning of accelerated development in American rocketry."

- Ed Kyle