Can't We All Just Get Along?

Can't We All Just Get Along?

In a word, no.

:D I kid, I kid

Anger and hatred usually don't solve anything. But supporting constructive alternatives such as the Hutchison bill is the way to go, IMO.

Unfortunately, I think NASA employees and their vendors are unusually embittered with the Obama administration for some perfectly logical reasons.

Obama not only terminated the Constellation program and the Space Shuttle program but also decided not to replace it with anything! Even Nixon didn't do that!

And all of the much cheaper alternatives to the Ares I/V architecture were simply ignored while the panacea of the emerging private commercial manned spaceflight companies was embraced.

So the administration is pretty much calling NASA employees, their vendors, and the whole NASA culture "failures"! Failures that are pretty much too expensive and too incompetent to be trusted doing anything!

The administration, including Bolden, also seem to imply that NASA's tiny budget is somehow a burden on the Federal budget and the American economy instead of a benefit. In fact, NASA's budget is nearly half that of what it was in the 1960s in today's dollars (how many other government agencies can say that?) while most other government programs have sky rocketed in cost! Yet NASA's tiny budget is some how viewed as unsustainable?

Plus Bolden has pretty much implied that having a base on the Moon is not important, pretty much throwing out NASA's working philosophy over the past few years of returning to the Moon-- to stay.

Hear HEAR!
And what's even worse is the pseudo-hysterical wailing and rending of sackcloth, not to mention the clouds of ashes: over the 'death' of HSF/NASA/America! Coming from a country that (nearly) spends as much on its civil space program, as all of the other nations' space programs combined.

And has not one, not two but three near term commercial Ground to Space Systems and many others besides.

And after confirming that the permanent occupation of space will continue to 2020 at least. That's more Americans in space than would have been achieved under the PPOR (Previous Program of Record!)

And what's the betting the gloom and doom will continue...

Get a grip Space Cadets because despite the above it is gonna be a bumpy ride.

"The reports of NASA's death are greatly exaggerated." With apologies to Mark Twain.

Obama not only terminated the Constellation program and the Space Shuttle program but also decided not to replace it with anything! Even Nixon didn't do that!

The decision to terminate Shuttle was made long ago. The final nails in this coffin were driven in during Griffin's tenure and Bush's Administration. You can't lay this one on Obama.

We would actually have had a Shuttle replacement now (full operation in 2012) if we had gone with an EELV + Orion alternative. So you can't stick Obama with the failure of Constellation.

Yes, I do agree that there should be more about specific human missions beyond LEO in the new policy, but overall it's a step in the right direction.

Editor's note: President Bush terminated the Shuttle program - not President Obama.

Thanks, Keith.

NASA funding, beyond LEO plans, HSF, and etc. don't get solved, nor is any insight gained, from name calling or political finger pointing, something that will, no doubt, continue.

No doubt beating the political horse gives some immature satisfaction, but it brings no one any closer to a solution, agreement, or anything constructive at all. I'll wager that not a single one of us reading NASA Watch has any cognitive powers that allow us to read the future or see into the minds of either the President, Mr. Bolden, or anyone, for that matter.

As a scientist, it would be an utter waste of my time and of money if I spent all day in the lab complaining about what I don't have or pretending that I know the motivations of people other than me. It would be a waste and completely childish. Instead a much more constructive approach would be one that an old NASA boss advised: be a problem solver. That is take what you have at hand and work from that; be creative; be open minded; and don't be penned in by limits created by your own bias. That's exactly what the people on the ground did to get help get Apollo 13 home, and it's exactly what other creative minds, brilliant engineers, and great scientists have done through out history.

Every time someone slings a poisoned political arrow, I think, "There's another person that has nothing to contribute." All that is served by such rancor and ill will is the creation of more rancor and ill will. It's the same rotten process that we all complain about when Congress can get nothing done.

We can do better than this.

I agree that such comments are unnecessary, and sometimes I just thrust my palms in my face when I read some of the comments on here.

Anyways, as a NASA contractor I dont blame anyone person, I know its the decision of a group. Bolden seems to be just reacting.

Just a side note that makes me question the sanity of bureaucrats. Healthcare: make a government agency to offer services in addition to the commercial companies, Spaceflight: support a commercial company(ies) to offer services in addition to government agency

Thank you Keith.

Angry is a natural reaction. But, many post are just flaming the fire and not helping folks transition to the next phase of a loss of this magnitude which is like a death in the family. So, I stopped reading the comments a few weeks ago. In addition to your Station Freedom comments, here's an interesting perspective of another NASA cancellation. http://www.setileague.org/drseti/why/index.html

"Why Privatize SETI Science?

When the NASA SETI program was cancelled in 1993, the US Government accomplished three things: they reduced their science expenditures by 5¢ per US citizen per year; they reduced the federal deficit by 0.0006%; and they drew a curtain across the sky, shielding us from possible membership in the cosmic community. My initial reaction was dismay. That gave way to elation a year later, with the founding of The SETI League and the privatization of SETI.

Privatized science makes good sense. When governments get involved in large-scale projects, they end up taking twice as long, costing twice as much, and working half as well. We're now doing our modest search on just 1% of NASA's old SETI budget. But we do need your support and participation, to keep that search alive. Whether you wish to operate your own amateur radio telescope, to develop new technology, or to share vicariously in the thrill of discovery, I invite you to join The SETI League. Together, there's no limit to what we might yet accomplish."

Keith,

The flaws in your system have more to do with the uncivilized behavior of the participants than the current NASA circumstances. The circumstances are only the trigger.

I have been convinced for years that you have agents with agenda's damaging to US space policy regularly posting on this forum. The anonymous forum format gives anyone with an ulterior motive, a platform to do real damage. Certainly you must be aware that this very forum has been the centerpiece of the anti-Constellation movement, operating for years on hearsay and rumor, all the while without a shred of actual responsibility.

It is easy to fix.

I suggest that you ban all anonymous posters and only allow those with the spine to post their real information in their profile to post here.

And you might also follow your own advice and temper your own incendiary photographs and headlines. It would be a great place to start to bring some civility to a very bad situation.

Editor's note: WRT anonymous posters, so I take it that your real name is "Vision Systems".

Perhaps a bit of levity would help....
How many NASA employees does it take to change a light bulb?
ANSWER: Only 1-but the light bulb must want to be changed....

Such comments will not be tolerated and people who attempt to post such things will simply be banned

... But your two-faced lampoon image of Senator Shelby is OK?

Personal invective and vitriolic posturing are antithetical to solution-making and consensus-building. Period. There have been (ignorant) personal attacks on everyone from Doug Cook and Michael Griffin, equating them to being evil for their defense of Constellation, to Charlie Bolden and Lori Garver, who is being subjected to the worst kind of hate-filled dehumanizing attacks. All of it is wrong. It's been wrong for the last five years and even more so now. Just my opinion.

There is one question I have though, a rhetorical one. For those who are so upset with the personal attacks on NASA/Bolden/Garver these days, I ask this: were you just as upset with the personal attacks on Constellation/Griffin/Cooke/Hanley during the course of the last five years? And vice-versa. See, it goes both ways, and is wrong either way. But to say it's okay in one instance, when you agree with the argument, but not in another instance, when you disagree with the argument, is hypocritical at best... and there's been a whole heckuva a lot of that.

Oh yeah, and my real name is Matthew Travis. I've never been afraid to speak my mind openly (don't ask how many times I've been a victim of identity theft lol).

I agree, the still shots of senators opposing Obama's plan with funny faces making them look stupid MUST also stop.

Well stated spacearium. Thanks!

"All of it is wrong. It's been wrong for the last five years and even more so now. ... For those who are so upset with the personal attacks on NASA/Bolden/Garver these days, I ask this: were you just as upset with the personal attacks on Constellation/Griffin/Cooke/Hanley during the course of the last five years? And vice-versa. See, it goes both ways, and is wrong either way."

QFT. People need to settle down, this is going to be a long haul. We probably won't know NASA's new direction until well into next year.

Hello Keith,

When I signed on to this forum, I put my name, Bill Mueller in the field that I thought would be my sig and my company name in another field. I was wrong, sorry. However, since my name, (again, Bill Mueller) IS in my profile, I thought that would be sufficient.

I do still stand by my observations of the long running vitriol in this forum and the damage it has done to our space program.

Best regards,

Bill Mueller

Editor's note: I think you grossly over exaggerate the influence of NASA Watch. That said, any Federal Agency that can be as "damaged" as you claim NASA has been by NASA Watch - a website with a bunch of anonymous posts - is an agency that could have been toppled by a stiff breeze. NASA's problems are not caused by NASA Watch. Get a grip.

"The decision to terminate Shuttle was made long ago."

So was the decision to continue funding the Constellation program and to terminate the ISS in 2015. Obama changed both these policies with his new budget so he could have changed the Shuttle decision too if he wanted to.

Marcel F. Williams

Yes we can, It takes some time to adjust to the new administration. I also lost my work assignment and was displaced for 6 years working through the agency at all Centers. I also was displaced when Space Station Freedom changed course.
NASA now has 6 MD. ESMD is only one of them and has work beyond CxP!

The CxP workforce can cry until the moon is found to be cheese, it will not change anything.

Does this plea for civility also apply to the commenters deriding people as 'teabaggers' and/or the commenters who exhibit a sick/hateful level of glee towards people who are worried about whether they will have a job when Constellation is cancelled? Just wondering.
(Have followed nasawatch for a while and have been struck by the level of hatefulness coming from people who don't like Constellation. Don't have a problem with anyone expressing sincere technical concerns about a program, but some commenters seem to project their dislike of a program onto the people working the program)

OK Frank, I can hang with levity.

The answer is I can't change a light bulb. But I can contract with a Prime to get the light bulb changed and hire a support contractor to confirm it was changed to spec.

"So was the decision to continue funding the Constellation program and to terminate the ISS in 2015. Obama changed both these policies with his new budget so he could have changed the Shuttle decision too if he wanted to."

Not really. The spare parts lines for the Shuttles were being shut down all through 2009. As of 9/09, according to Wayne Hale's blog at NASA, 95% have all been cancelled. It's my understanding that it's hard to restart production lines of this kind.

CM Levin

Hey, "swing...", don't forget to file your progress report on light bulbs, and reserve the conference room for a meeting on light bulb status. Order coffee and pastries from Starbucks and keep your receipts!

"have been struck by the level of hatefulness coming from people who don't like Constellation. ... some commenters seem to project their dislike of a program onto the people working the program"

Exactly. If people think some parts of Constellation are not the best direction, I can see that. But to run down the people working on it as incompetent losers... Nobody ever said the people working on the X-33, or the X-38, or any of those other cancelled programs were incompetent.

And to express glee and hated at its cancellation... pretty much a recipe for a lot of anger and bad feelings back in the other direction.

There's a big difference between showing a picture of a politician implying he's two-faced or criticizing the CxP program manager for having no experience and racists or sexist remarks. The latter is unacceptable and is an indication of not having a valid argument to support your position. It is one thing to criticize someone's policies or capabilities, but an entirely different thing to slander them based on gender or skin color.

I don't believe that sexist or racist remarks are acceptable. But I do believe it is acceptable to criticize the CxP leadership, by name, for a lack of qualifications for the jobs to which they have been assigned. It is also valid to criticize the NASA leadership, by name, that put them there.

Ive said this in a previous post and all those dems and republicans out there can take it to heart.

EVERY Administration and Congress since Apollo 18 and 19 were canceled has used NASA and its various agencies as a cut the budget whipping post. FACT.

Nasa shortsightedness to beyond LEO is another matter. The ISS ( which is finally complete and would give my pinky toe to sit in the cupola segment.)and its scientific accomplishments or lack there of is another matter.Everyone that post here will say although it cost more than it was supposed to and there were some fatalities STS (Methuselah) has served us well.Although, Lack of vision beyond that work horse was a mistake, It cant be blamed solely on Obama. STS was announced in 1972 on the freaking moon.Its first flight was 81. I think they had time that's 30 years, we went to the moon in 9.

Gravity Be Damned!