NASA To Participate in Toyota Accelerator Probe

NASA to investigate cause of Toyota problems

"The federal probe into runaway Toyotas has resulted in enough scientific mystery that investigators have asked NASA scientists for help. The nation's auto-safety regulators have tapped nine experts from the space agency to answer questions involving software, hardware and other electronics issues..."

Keith's note: No mention of this (yet) at NASA.gov. I wonder who the "NASA engineers" are? Where will the NASA funds come from?

Keith's update: According to Keith Henry at NASA LaRC PAO: "NASA Engineering and Safety Center (NESC), located at NASA's Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va., has been asked to support the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) in its investigation of unintended acceleration related to Toyota vehicles and, potentially, of other vehicle makes. NASA's NESC has a cadre of engineers with specialized knowledge of electronic systems, and the effects of external interferences to electrical systems who can conduct an unbiased and independent review of the information. A formal (Space Act) agreement was signed Friday between NASA and DOT. The agreement is broad -- details are still being worked out. The agreement calls for DOT to fully reimburse NASA for its work. The testing program that will be suggested by NESC analysis has not been defined, to include location of tests. It is anticipated that the majority of tests will take place at DOT or DOT-related facilities."

Toyota Accelerator Probe Turns to NASA, Science Panel, Bloomberg

"The National Research Council's study will cost $2 million and NASA's will add $1 million, LaHood said."

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood Announces Major Investigations to Resolve Issue of Sudden Acceleration

"The prestigious National Academy of Sciences - an independent body using top scientific experts - will examine the broad subject of unintended acceleration and electronic vehicle controls across the entire automotive industry. Separately, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is the Department of Transportation's auto safety agency, has enlisted NASA engineers with expertise in areas such as computer controlled electronic systems, electromagnetic interference and software integrity to help tackle the issue of unintended vehicle acceleration in Toyotas."

TRB to Review Unintended Acceleration Issues, NAS/NRC

"Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today that the U.S. Department of Transportation will fund a new study by the National Research Council's Transportation Research Board and Division on Engineering and Physical Sciences to review the broad subject of unintended acceleration and electronic vehicle controls across the industry, and specifically, industry and government efforts to identify possible causes of unintended acceleration."


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Anyone know who the "NASA scientists" are?

Maybe out of work Orion Engineers....

Well, This is great news.

This is exactly what NACA used to do. The last NACA effort was the X15.
It appears ex-CxP folks(science driven now) may be able to do something productive at the research centers. This is really welcome to be invited and funded to take part in the effort.

It was a successful launch! The Prius was! Its the new volkswagon bus on the mountain pass and cannot even pass trucks on the highway very well. Maybe this is why the pedal gets stuck, it not used enough!

This is why I hate Congress. "NASA has too much money. We don't need to waste money on the space program. Oh by the way, go do some unrelated scientific stuff at *your* expense". Let the Department of Transportation take care of this.

Next Astrovan is going to be a Toyota. Nevermind how quick it gets you to the launch pad.

NASA lending a hand in this sort of work is not unprecedented. They helped out (and I believe solved) the reason for the TWA 800 crash (I think that was the number ... crashed near NYC a few years ago) and can certainly lend a hand in FMEA and will probably solve the Toyota problem.

A lot of people are down on NASA's capabilities and are extremely sarcastic right now, but they're still THE elite government agency.

Not sure who funds such things.

Don't forget that TWA800 WAS at least aerospace related. Incompetent/GRQ driving and automotive electro-mechanical device deficiencies are not. Is this what garver meant I wonder? Wouldn't be surprised...

So much more inspirational than going to the moon. I'll bet the kids are rushing to declare majors in science and engineering.

I'm a little puzzled by this. Why wouldn't the NTSB handle this investigation. They investigate aircraft accidents with complex fly-by-wire systems. Wouldn't they have the expertise to investigate the drive-by-wire automotive systems.
On a side note, when I first heard this I wondered what the standards are for the drive-by-wire systems. For instance, are they required to have double error detection, single error correction memory? In a previous career as an electrical engineer in memory card test, I remember the concern that we had with the main memory cards for the 3081 mainframes susceptibility to alpha particles. Wonder if some of the issues could be due to some sort of radiation issue? We have seen this a couple times with the Mars rovers going into safe mode due to a memory fault.

Lets see here. In 2010 NASA is canceling the shuttle program, canceling the program to return to the moon and decimating launch vehicle development. However, NASA is getting into climatology modeling which probably should belong to either the NSF or the National Academy of Sciences and it is now getting into automotive engineering. I am beginning to believe that we should chance the title of NASA to NADASA (National Agency for Doing Anything but Space and Aeronautics), or NARBD the (National Agency for Really Bad Decisions).


Don't forget that TWA800 WAS at least aerospace related. Incompetent/GRQ driving and automotive electro-mechanical device deficiencies are not. Is this what garver meant I wonder? Wouldn't be surprised...
The TWA activity was with the NTSB and they work for Congress.

What does DOT Secretary Ray Lahood asking NASA for help have to do with Garver? Twisted logic if I have every read some.

Just because this is not "rocket launching" NASA is help determine what happened to cause the software logic control system to behave like it does causing harm to the US public.

If I remember correctly, the TWA 800 problem was determined (by NASA investigation) to be a spark in a partially-full fuel tank.

It Toyota's problem is in the computer or electronics, it's similar whether it's aerospace related or not.

Not much anybody can do to cure incompetent driving or fraudulent problem reporting, and certainly not NASA. The investigation might determine those things to be the most likely reason for the reports though.

Cars are getting complex. Self-parking, wireless, mobile entertainment centers. It's possible there are software bugs that lurk and cannot be reproduced. NASA has this experience. These types of failures occur once in a blue moon, just when the timing/conditions happen to be right, which is why they are so rare and hard to find.

It seems unlikely that the rash of incidents is due to driver error, and simple (electro-) mechanical failure could be reproduced under test.

Hey, what did you expect when Obama made a campaign promise to "redirect NASA"?

and it was MY idea, LoL!)

geesh, what a bunch-o-snarky-must-be-republicans-postings up there!!

well, Edmunds is offering a 1-million nonX-prize, maybe the Merchant 7 wanna go for it too?)

Keith is right though, it'll depend on whether they got the Right stuff Nasa folks working on it -

seem to remember the Shuttle Flight software/avionics folks from JSC/KSC for software
diagnostics/testing - not sure if the unmanned part of NASA software has the same certification-perfection record or credentials?

hey, if NASA can solve it, it'll be the best Public Service PR in years-which should help public support-which should help funding.......!

NASA has had much experience with failure analysis in complex systems and with generating complete fault trees. They are an obvious choice to help investigate this problem.

Why do folks miss all the details?

The agreement calls for DOT to fully reimburse NASA for its work.

I've read elsewhere that NASA's experience in cosmic background radiation and other electromagnetic leak/interference issues is being sought.

I would assume that NASA either has the tools and the facilities needed to test for such things- and or knows the tools and the facilities needed.

GOOD that the DOT doesn't have to reinvent the wheel or go find a private sector expert who may have ties/experience in the auto industry.

A fresh set of experienced eyes for a possible safety issue that may effect more than Toyota?
3 million well spent. Lets get this question answered.

We all know there was lots of waste (x-33(and it's launch facility)/x-38/cxp (and it's launch facility/etc...)

BUT

This little bit of money gives NASA a bit of a PR boost at a much needed time.

"However, NASA is getting into climatology modeling which probably should belong to either the NSF or the National Academy of Sciences"

"getting into"? Really? Never heard of the GISS climate model or the GSFC Data Assimilation Office? If "getting into" means pioneered the field for decades, then I guess, yeah, NASA's "getting into" climate modeling. What other crazy stuff is NASA going to be "getting into" next? Aeronautics maybe?

It's obvious that no one wants to solve this problem in a reasonable amount of time. Involving NASA adds at least a year to this investigation...

I'm willing to wager that the Toyota problem boils down to some vague software interaction. If that's the case, the NTSB probably doesn't have the resources to crunch a million lines of code looking for that one bug.

Debugging fly by wire things is something NASA should know well by now. You also have to admit that the name of NASA carries alot of weight with the public when it comes to technical issues.

No matter if they can figure it out or not, folks will sleep better knowing NASA is on the case.

It's obvious that no one wants to solve this problem in a reasonable amount of time. Involving NASA adds at least a year to this investigation...

Rocket Launcher united! statement above on Steroids.

The idea is to understand the CAUSE, not solve the problem directly. It is a good example of sound scientific engineering practice. NASA is not all about solve the problem, it is also about determine the cause! so we understand the problem.

Yeah, I'm sure our astronauts preparing for their ballistic re-entry on the Ruskie Soyuz will sleep a lot better knowing that the Toyota Hybrids are safe!

@dbooker

(and all of like mind)

Toyota isn't the only one to make Hybrids, and the problem may not be restricted to Hybrids.

As for a US benefit to Taxpayers-

GM is soon to release the range extended electric Volt and has hybrids- Ford is soon to release an electric and has Hybrids (some of which use a licensed version of the Toyota system)

Additionally, all the US car makers will be relying on sophisticated electronics for cylinder deactivation/higher combustion temps, better timing, better air/fuel mix etc.

We need to understand if this is an isolated incident or whether the way we're doing electronics in cars may not be well shielded from background interference or whether it's an issue of bad electronic redundancy/fail safe.

Historically (and currently) NASA has been given responsibility for designing/monitoring/reporting on a whole host of things that aren't directly related to rockets/propulsion/space vehicles, etc-

Let's just see what the scientists come up with before bashing them or the current effort, (which does not come out of NASA funds) eh?

It just so happens that NASA is better for this kind of Research task than it has been at developing spaceships.

U.S. Astronauts should be thankful for the Soyuz.
If not for Russian technical excellence and perseverance, there wouldn't be a future in manned spaceflight to look forward to.

I wonder if ITAR will prevent NASA giving Toyota the results of its investigation.

This entire investigation is a political "dog and pony show" to appease the general public's demand that their government do something - anything - on this matter. If one objectively looks at the facts and statistics, Toyota vehicles have not experienced significantly more Unintended Accelerations than other vehicle brands.

Blaming undetectable gremlins in the software or irreproducible interference are technological red herrings that I predict will go nowhere in this "investigation."

The anecdotal evidence is almost worthless here. In the few cases when other hard data is available, driver error, mechanical failure, or fraud have been shown to be the mundane root causes.

If you weren't so ignorant I guess Americans should be offended. The Space Shuttle is a vastly superior spacecraft than the Soyuz. Please explain why the Soyuz has had the same number of loss of crew accidents, 2, as the Space Shuttle with LESS flights! Also look at the number of aborts and mission failures due to things like failure to dock (you can see these at websites Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Astronautica). The Space Shuttle has performed much better over its lifespan than the Soyuz. And lets not forget that if not for the Shuttle the MIR would have had a much earlier demise.

"Toyota vehicles have not experienced significantly more Unintended Accelerations than other vehicle brands."

Well then maybe NASA can help solve the problem for all car manufacturers..? I'm sure they're all watching this. I completely agree with this. They want to get to the bottom of it and this is a great way.

They are primarily referring to Single Event Upsets (SEU). The cosmic EMI is probably less of a concern than the well know effects to electronics from radio transmitters (like hand held transceivers and the like).

I doubt this is caused by SEU, but NASA is well aware of the effects. This generally only affects latched data and I would expect and hope that brakes are not latched but provide asynchronous input to the car logic circuits.

It would be possible for an SEU to cause a computer to lock up, but again this can be designed out. This should be easy to determine since the recorder would have stopped recording data and the car engine would have likely stopped functioning.

I would expect this to show up on a fault tree analysis (as well as other far out theories), but its likelihood is low.

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This page contains a single entry by Keith Cowing published on March 30, 2010 8:17 PM.

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