Kosmas and Hutchison Tag Team on Space Policy

"One problem in the president's proposal is that it does not address the risk to the station that will result from retiring the space shuttle and canceling the Constellation replacement program at the same time."

These pundits just cannot get it through their thick skulls that Constellation was going to abandon the ISS because Ares I would not be ready until AFTER it was deorbited because they depended on having that budget for Constellation. No matter what you think of the 2011 budget proposal overall, you must concede that the president's plan is a vast improvement over Constellation in regards to ISS.

you must concede that the president's plan is a vast improvement over Constellation in regards to ISS

in which frickin universe would that be?

reboot & rethink:
CxP-POR = bad
Merchant 7 = bad
Outsourcing to Russia = bad
Stalling to 2015 for nextgen hsf = bad

Mace: "What is Skywalker doing?"
Obi-Wan: "It appears to be one of Anakin's improvised plans."
Mace: "How can it be a plan if it's improvised?"
Obi-Wan: "Not to worry. Just catch them when they fall."
Rex: "Uh, a lot of the General's plans involve falling."

dancin in the moonlight, everybody's feelin warm & bright

The President's proposal pretty much keeps NASA doing what its been doing for the last couple of decades, except we'd be traveling on a Russian rocket to the space station instead of an American rocket.

It doesn't, however, get us back to the Moon to stay!

Marcel F. Williams

That would be the universe of reality, which universe do you live in?

Constellation was going to abandon the ISS in 2015, a full 2 years before Ares I would even return us to LEO. Oh, but we would have no where to go in LEO because ISS is in the Pacific. Well, we could go to the Moon. But wait, Ares V and EDS won't be ready until the late 2020's. Damn, now we can get to the Moon but we can't land because Altair won't be available until the late 2030's. Then all we could do is plant flags and make footprints again because building a base would take at least until 2050. Of course, none of this could have happened because it would have been canceled once the public realized that NASA had spent $40 billion just to return to LEO with Ares I but had no ISS to go to. The president saved us $30 billion and 10 years by canceling Ares I now.

I've been working for this agency for almost 30 years and I know for a fact that Constellation was a disaster in progress. Reboot and rethink is exactly what this president is trying to get NASA to do. But all NASA is capable of is whining, bitching, and digging in against change.

Well, well, well, finally someone to breathe a breath of fresh and logical thinking into this ill conceived vision. It makes such sense to use heritage shuttle parts than to start from ground zero on untried commercial ventures. Obama's plan is a strange way to pay-back those who contributed to his campaign. It was only obvious where his allegiance laid when he came to KSC and snubbed the work force and the entire KSC facility. He showed his true colors and even managed to pull the fleece over the publics eyes, but that is changing as time lets us see the President's and Charlie's vision is flawed and the needs the gaps filled in with a bit more substantial planning and visioning. That is the exact reason why NASA should be uncoupled from the political process. But since that will not happen, then we have to rely on the checks and balance that the three houses of government provide. Sorry, but the system is working and this is not a monarchy.

Well, well, well, finally someone to breathe a breath of fresh and logical thinking into this ill conceived vision. It makes such sense to use heritage shuttle parts than to start from ground zero on untried commercial ventures. Obama's plan is a strange way to pay-back those who contributed to his campaign. It was only obvious where his allegiance laid when he came to KSC and snubbed the work force and the entire KSC facility. He showed his true colors and even managed to pull the fleece over the publics eyes, but that is changing as time lets us see the President's and Charlie's vision is flawed and the needs the gaps filled in with a bit more substantial planning and visioning. That is the exact reason why NASA should be uncoupled from the political process. But since that will not happen, then we have to rely on the checks and balance that the three houses of government provide. Sorry, but the system is working and this is not a monarchy.

the KSC Shuttle workforce would agree with your CxP assessment

but Obama doesn't win in Florida with outsourcing to Russia, Merchant7, 5 year decision delays, or any other plan that results in a bad rocket to nowhere and loss of America's HSF capability either

Leftist spinmeistering is just as bad as rightist spinmeistering as far as KSC Shuttle workers are concerned.

reboot & rethink:
CxP-POR = bad
Merchant 7 = bad
Outsourcing to Russia = bad
Stalling to 2015 for nextgen hsf = bad

Mace: "What is Skywalker doing?"
Obi-Wan: "It appears to be one of Anakin's improvised plans."
Mace: "How can it be a plan if it's improvised?"
Obi-Wan: "Not to worry. Just catch them when they fall."
Rex: "Uh, a lot of the General's plans involve falling."

dancin in the moonlight, everybody's feelin warm & bright

FWIW, I think that the big risk the FY2011 plan takes is to assume that IPs and commercial providers can take up the entire shuttle upmass slack. If this doesn't happen, then either the ISS has to be abandoned or, better-case, is left functioning in a reduced maintenance mode.

It is for this reason that I think that the only way forward for now is to build an interim ISS servicing capability around Orion, EELV and ULA's Payload Bay Shroud cargo hauler. Once commercial cargo and crew are working reliably, then Orion can be repurposed for BEO and the PLBF can either be limited to outsize cargos to the ISS or sold on to a commercial provider to continue as part of the CRS fleet. I say that this is the 'only way' because shuttle-derived seems to be something of a hot potato with everyone having their own view as to what the best form would be for it to take. In the name of progress (and speaking as a DIRECT fanboy) I think that side-stepping the issue entirely might be benenficial

This would protect the ISS investment and ensure US-indigenous HSF continuity with a shorter indigenous crew launch gap. It would also mean that Orion could be flight tested earlier and allow an R&D focus on BEO capabilities with a spacecraft with known and fixed specifications.

"These pundits just cannot get it through their thick skulls that Constellation was going to abandon the ISS..."

ISS into the drink after 2015 or so?
Roscosmos, ESA, JAXA and Canada were going to let that happen?!

All moot now, until at least 2020...and I am guessing , modulo a huge orbit debris impact on the ISS, station may be be there until some date in the unknown future.

Obviously there are pluses and minuses to Obama's plan and while I fundamentally think it makes sense there are some things I don't like. But one thing is that with limited budgetary resources we cannot do Constellation stand alone and definitely not when throwing in a shuttle extension. So you have to approach this rationally doing what is best done with reasonable resources. And for those who loudly denounce the loss of a US capability to put men in orbit, realize that even if we continued shuttle we will still pay Russia for up, down, and emergency crew services since shuttle can only stay at station for 10 days or so. Shuttle is a great space truck but hugely expensive and inherently very dangerous in that capacity when other sources could do it cheaper. Commercial is definitely a big question mark but if you never try it will never happen and if it works it should be far less expensive than a NASA vehicle.

But now, I think more in an act of desperation than reality, Hutchinson and Kosmas want to drag the final shuttle flights out a couple of years. Tell me that isn't a jobs program and nothing else! You can attempt to justify it as a logistics mission but you are going to pay at least $100M a month, and probably more like $150M, to maintain the necessary shuttle army to fly it. It is unlikely it could be any less unless NASA were to do a massive change of management on how shuttle flights are supported and processed and that is very unlikely.

NASA is either going to have to change significantly or it will never change if congress people have their way and support it totally dependent on money in their districts. I can guarantee that neither of the congress women would be doing anything if they were from Minnesota.

That the new Obama plan saves ISS is a disingenous strawman. No matter what plan this administration came up with ISS was going to be extended simply because the International Partners wanted it to. The reason the 2015 date was in the original NASA plan (not the Constellation plan)was to force Congress's hand and either fund both properly or be on the record for choosing to slip out the Constellation or VSE program. So Obama's plan shouldn't get any credit for doing the obvious and what everyone knew was the plan.

It is arrogant and naive to think you can force Congress' hand, especially about something as irrelevant to the general public as the space program. We all think it's important, but if NASA were eliminated it would make the news for a few months and within a few years nobody would remember. It's sad but true.

The sad part about his whole thing is that NASA had a real chance to do something great with Constellation and it failed miserably. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter about Obama's plan or the program of record or whatever direction we go, NASA HSF is just not capable of succeeding at anything it does any more. Management is incompetent when it comes to design and development and they're too arrogant to admit it. Shuttle ops is all they know how to do.

I agree with possum's core sentiment - that NASA no longer has the skill set or core competences to develop a new crewed spacecraft and launch vehicle. Furthermore, the CxP fiasco shows that it does not have the right managerial set up to learn how to do it either. However, the way that RTF and the way SSP has been run since is an indication that the organisation can run a crewed spaceflight program very well, once the hardware is in place.

That is the essence of my compromise plan: Leverage the core competences of both worlds. Have the commercial guys design, develop and build the LV and spacecraft according to detailed user specifications from NASA. Let NASA then operate the thing rather than buy complete services 'off-the-shelf'.

The spacecraft & launch systems, as a commercial design, would be available for anyone with the funds to buy (aside from some export restrictions). So, commercial spaceflight providers would have access to it too. In time, the commercial spaceflight companies will develop enough experience to operate their own crewed missions. However, in the short-term, NASA will have to do that.