KSC and JSC Really Want a Shuttle

I thought that one Orbiter might be destined for the US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, and that would be nice. But the "endrun" criteria actually make sense to me, and both KSC and JSC have had more to do with the Orbiter operations and processing than Marshall has. So they probably should get one. And I'm sure one will wind up in the Smithsonian.

Not sure why either Florida or Alabama would need one. Florida has 2 or 3 full scale replicas and they look little different. Marshall has 098, the STA and it is real enough (as much so as their Saturn V).

If Smithsonian gets one, then another ought to go the west coast, one to JSC, and another to a location where it will draw people from another part of the country as far from the others as possible, likely the northern midwest.

The Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville took itself out of the running after reviewing the costs imposed by NASA for acquiring and maintaining an orbiter. The Smithsonian is already slated to get Discovery, and have stated that they expect that Enterprise will go elsewhere as a result. NASA processing folks have been doing preliminary work on Enterprise to ready it for one last ferry flight.

The space shuttle Enterprise is the centerpiece of the James S. McDonnell Space Hangar at the National Air and Space Museum's Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Va.

I always thought it was a no-brainer because there are three orbiters and by coincidence three locations already identified by the vast majority of the general public as places to see space exhibits and artifacts, those being Smithsonian, JSC and KSC. So I always assumed (naively) that that is where they would go and there wouldn't be any debate about it. So imagine my surprise when NASA all but puts them up for sale on eBay. I'm glad to see there's a chance that in the end they may wind up at the three locations that I think are the best. The only question for me is Enterprise, my thinking is that it could be moved to Wright-Patterson where it could fit in with an exhibit related to Edwards. As for Dryden I think that would have been logical for Enterprise except that it's too far off the beaten path for most tourists.

"Jane! Stop this crazy thing!"

I would have to disagree Moonman. Here at KSC we should have one of the shuttles. We have put our blood, sweat, and tears into the shuttles for the past 30 years. The Vistor Center at KSC should be the home of one of the shuttles. The two replicas are nothing more than hulls. We would gladly give up the two replicas. JSC can have the second one. As for the Smithsonian they already have a shuttle. The Enterprise is at the Smithsonian hangar at Washington Dulles International Airport. The third shuttle should go to the Intrepid Museum in NYC.

Orbiters should NOT all be allocated based on what Centers were involved with them--that is not fair to the folks (taxpayers) around the country that paid for them. I can see maybe one being allocated this way, and if you pick one Center it has to be at JSC just by the simple fact of "ownership"--they designed them, oversaw the production of the fleet, the Project office is based out of there, and they currently own the design. After the ownership aspect is taken into account the remaining orbiters should be located at places where they will provide taxpayers the most opportunities to view them, like large population and tourist centers such as New York City or in California (where they were also built). Lets face it, after the last Shuttle launches there won't be anyone visiting the KSC area anytime soon--thus not a logical place to house one.

As a New Yorker, I find the idea of getting a shuttle, perhaps to display at the great Intrepid museum, kinda cool. I would actually say it might be a bit too much. I would much rather see one of the orbiters end up in the Air and Space Annex at Dulles, and perhaps the Enterprise could then be sent up here.

However, when you consider the care that went into maintaining the Enterprise, in that lovely climate controlled hanger at the Annex, I must say, it would be disappointing if they just threw the Enterprise up onto the deck of the Intrepid to rust or rot or whatever happens to these things when they are left outside for a decade or two.

After seeing the Apollo center at KSC built around that Saturn rocket, I would think that each of the orbiters deserves a nice building within which to age a little more gracefully.

The plan is to deliver shuttles where they best serve the country, right?

So what do you call this special treatment?

Enterprise, which has been at Smithsonian's Udvar Hazy, is being replaced by Discovery and Enterprise will go elsewhere.

The USAF Museum at Wright Patterson is the most likely northern mid-west location both because of the number of visitors, the fact they already have the hangar space and means to care for it, and because the USAF essentially paid for an Orbiter originally.

JSC and the Seattle/Boeing (Rockwell) Museum of Flight are the likely other locations. Rockwell of course built the Orbiters.

I am not sure that the KSC PAO/Visitors Center people would be interested in giving up either of their existing Orbiter replicas. They are a big draw for visitors.

"Lets face it, after the last Shuttle launches there won't be anyone visiting the KSC area anytime soon--thus not a logical place to house one."

People tour KSC when they're in Orlando for Disney, so I doubt this is true. Besides, there are not launches for most of the year and the visitor center always has visitors. Trying to tour the center during launch countdown or after would be really tough.

The Air force museum at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton Ohio has been lobbying hard for the acquisition of "Atlantis" due to it prominent role of DoD missions along with 30 U.S. Air force astronauts that flew on board.

Wright Patterson already has a list of heavy hitters going to bat to get Atlantis in Dayton-Secretary and Under Secretary of the Air force, multiple congressional delegations, Governor of Ohio, 18 former astronauts, John Glenn, OAI etc and has 1.3 million visitors each year..

I agree with spaceman85 that just because your location worked predominately on shuttle doesn't mean you deserve to have one--it's not about you--it's about getting the shuttles to the public who payed for them so they can see them.

Dayton is centrally located within 500 miles of 60% of the nations population centers and is defined as one of only two major logistics centroids in the United States.

I think they deserve one........

Spiff out.........

I agree with spaceman. The remaining orbiters should go to places where people have never seen them and will flock to the exhibits to learn about them. That means a west coast site and perhaps the Intrepid museum in New York City. I can imagine an orbiter aboard the Intrepid would really become a major tourist attraction in the Big Apple. Keeping the shuttles at JSC, KSC or MSFC won't raise the tourism levels one bit. Let the American people see what they have retired out in the places where they will make the most impact. IMHO

Perhaps NASA should sell one of the shuttles to one of its international partners. This will make our partners feel good about their contribution to human space flight. Kind of like France sending over the Statue of Liberty.

I could not agree more, Then the public will know that ths spaceshuttle was developed over four decades and started long before JSC,KSC,MSFC existed.

This is also the primary reason CxP failed. The public was clueless and no one cared, I think Orion should be placed at JSC, KSC and MSFC with Ares 1 beside on the vertical.

How about putting one in the midwest..say Chicago...since a lot of people live far from KSC and JSC and aren't on either coast. Chicago would be a great place for the rest of the country to be able to see part of our space history.

"The remaining orbiters should go to places where people have never seen them and will flock to the exhibits to learn about them."

That statement alone qualifies KSC not only because it already has quite a flow of international tourists who come to see the launch facility and the Saturn V Center as well.

Additionally, those three sites have one thing sitting an orbiter aboard a WWII aircraft carrier can never have: context.

"I can imagine an orbiter aboard the Intrepid would really become a major tourist attraction in the Big Apple."

Probably no more or no less than anywhere else.

By that logic, they should put one in Disney World.

Or South Beach.

"Keeping the shuttles at JSC, KSC or MSFC won't raise the tourism levels one bit."

You don't know that to be true or not to be true.

What *is* fact is that the Saturn V exhibits in those three centers increased tourism.

To say that an Orbiter would or would not increase tourism is quite simply blind supposition.

The display of large-scale artifacts is a money issue. JSC was never able to get financial help from Houston or Texas to house the Saturn V. Eventually, the Smithsonian stepped in when the rocket had deteriorated to a dangerous level. The Smithsonian is charged with maintaining these artifacts "in perpetuity". If a Shuttle is to come to one of the Centers, the local and state hosts need to come up with the dollars since it's not in the NASA budget. Another very viable curator in addition to the ones already mentioned is the USAF Museum in Dayton. They have a spot all picked out for an orbiter and will do a bang up job displaying it alongside their fabulous aerospace collection.

Lets face it, after the last Shuttle launches there won't be anyone visiting the KSC area anytime soon--thus not a logical place to house one.

Yes, given that the Cocoa Beach-Titusville area is the closest beach and a mere 50 miles away from one of the world's leading international tourist destinations -- Orlando -- I am quite certain that no one will go there.

And since Cape Cananveral will almost certainly be a manned launch center for SpaceX and others -- it is quite reasonable to assume that tourists will continue to come there to see the next generation of manned flight, whatever it turns out to be.

People certainly never stopped in the 1970s flight gap, and they won't now. People love going to Space View Park, Cocoa Beach, down to the jetty and other view sites to see Atlas V and other unmanned launches.

Sure, the crowds are nowhere as large as manned launches, but to say that KSC will shrivel up and die is silly.

According to the "Spam canners" The shuttle is a horrible mistake. Something that should have never been built. This is the reason for Constellation. To get rid of the Shuttle and restore the Apollo program as though it was never ended. As such, why would either place want a Shuttle? In order to appease the "Shuttle hating spam canners, lets send the Shuttles to Davis Mothan AFB where they can be shredded as though they never existed.

As a New Yorker, I find the idea of getting a shuttle, perhaps to display at the great Intrepid museum, kinda cool. I would actually say it might be a bit too much. I would much rather see one of the orbiters end up in the Air and Space Annex at Dulles, and perhaps the Enterprise could then be sent up here.

However, when you consider the care that went into maintaining the Enterprise, in that lovely climate controlled hanger at the Annex, I must say, it would be disappointing if they just threw the Enterprise up onto the deck of the Intrepid to rust or rot or whatever happens to these things when they are left outside for a decade or two.

After seeing the Apollo center at KSC built around that Saturn rocket, I would think that each of the orbiters deserves a nice building within which to age a little more gracefully.

I respectfully disagree. You could place them in other locations - but generally Americans are apathetic toward space flight and I'm doubtful they will flock to see them.

What I have not heard is where Enterprise will end up. Discovery is going to NASM Udvar Hazy, Endeavour and Atlantis unknown.

Personally? Since most of America have allowed the space program to pass them by - I feel they should go to places where people still care about them. If people had wanted to see them - they had 30 years to do so.

If you're looking at putting a shuttle where the most people would see it, then KSC would be the logical choice. It looks like Intrepid has 750K visitors a year, JSC 611K visitors a year, and KSC 1.4M visitors a year.

If you're trying to double attendance at Intrepid, then you will have problems getting all those people through there. NY already has problems getting people to see the Statue of Liberty. JSC might be able to increase easier since they probably have more land available, but KSC has the infrastructure and land to add a new exhibit.

Comments that after the shuttle is retired, no one will go to KSC don't know what they are talking about. Attendance will drop (another reason to have one at KSC), but it is a short distance from what I think is the world's biggest tourist area (Disney World, Universal, Sea World). There will likely still be many tourists going to KSC.

You might be surprised, but after the shuttle there are still unmanned rockets launched and there will hopefully be another crewed rocket program cranking up.

> If you're looking at putting a shuttle where the most people would see it, then KSC would be the logical choice.

KSC is obviously a logical choice. That is the point, the decision should be made on logic and merit, not congressional bias bills.

If the merit is behind KSC, they will get an orbiter. No "Tourist Artifact Welfare Bill" need be involved.

While I at first sympathized with the votes for major population centers like NYC or Chicago, I have to agree with CharlesBoyer - Context! There should definitely be one at KSC. I went there when I was a little kid - because it was close by on a 2 week vacation to Florida. The Intrepid in NYC already looks like Disney World with the Blackbird on a boat, hah. Ok yes it's a cool museum. I would be all for having it as a temporary exhibit there for a while (is that possible?). But KSC is hallowed ground for space aficionados and the context would have an impact even for the uninitiated so I think that should be permanent home to one.

Marshall has an impressive collection and I believe they get lots of attendance to the Space and Rocket Center. I don't know the significance of a shuttle there though. Their model is probably just fine.

I would have added the Kansas Cosmosphere but it has a full size mockup. And I still think 4 orbiters-Atlantis, Enterprise, Endeavour and Discovery, with Discovery headed for NASM, the remaining 3 could still wind up at Intrepid, Museum of Flight-and if people insist, KSC...then of course JSC would have fits.

I like the idea of the USAF Museum in Dayton, it would make it very accessible to the school kids in the Midwest. And they do have a link to USAF history to justify it.

New York is too close to DC to make sense.

Space Center Houston, the JSC Visitor Center, was originally sized to accommodate an Orbiter in its rotunda although I am not sure how it gets in there.

KSC has two full scale replicas already and really does not 'need' another.

The only question is where on the west coast. But given the super space display that Bonnie Dunbar has been putting in at the MOF for several years, I think that will be the logical place.

I agree w/Moonman, MOF is spending a huge amount of money and effort in developing a Shuttle-themed display. By their seriousness of purpose and planning I think they have earned an orbiter.

"If you're looking at putting a shuttle where the most people would see it, then KSC would be the logical choice. It looks like Intrepid has 750K visitors a year, JSC 611K visitors a year, and KSC 1.4M visitors a year."

Your numbers are flawed. KSC's visitor complex numbers are skewed high due to peak attendance for Shuttle launches. JSC's visitor center doesn't have any such peak attendance event so their numbers are steady and more realistic for post-Shuttle.

"Comments that after the shuttle is retired, no one will go to KSC don't know what they are talking about. Attendance will drop (another reason to have one at KSC), but it is a short distance from what I think is the world's biggest tourist area (Disney World, Universal, Sea World). There will likely still be many tourists going to KSC."

KSC is already getting millions of $ in earmarked handouts for their Shuttle-related losses and giving them an orbiter based on another "poor us" story of falling attendance at their visitor's center is not a good reason. Because there wont be Shuttle launches, people that go to Orlando for vacation to see a theme park wont waste a whole day (KSC is an hour drive and 50 miles each way just to get to/from the Disney area) and $40/person to stare at an orbiter when they could be riding space mountain or watching a Shamu show.

People People People,

1)The Intrepid museum is not and would never be a consideration.

The NASA RFI to obtain a retired shuttle specifically states the the orbiters MUST be housed Indoors in a climate controlled facility--Period!

The RFI also states several minimum qualifications to be considered as a candidate for an orbiter.

2) The deadlines for requesting a shuttle were closed a LONG time ago--if you didn't get your request in by that date you are NOT in the running now.

The original RFI for an orbiter came out December 17, 2008 with a deadline of March 17, 2009 with a cost of $42 million for shuttle prep and delivery.

A second RFI came out in early 2010 with a response deadline of February 19 2010 that included a revised cost of $28 million for shuttle prep and delivery.

And NASA requires FULL funding by April 11 2011.

In addition it looks like all the SSME's have already been scooped up with no more being offered.

So if your favorite museum didn't get it's paperwork already submitted this is a moot subject.

I am putting my money on Atlantis going to Dayton when it gets retired.

Read it here,

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/transition/home/int_orbiter_rfi.html

Spiff........Out

Hey I know, let's move the Liberty Bell from Philadelphia to Times Square so that more people can see it (1 million in Philadelphia vs. 26 million in Times Square). Just kidding of course, but I notice that this subject has a surprising number of angles that most of us hadn't thought of before (at least I didn't) which is probably why there is no consensus.

Historical angle - Which locations are most associated with Space Shuttle. My opinion is JSC, KSC, Edwards.

Public expectation - Where do most people expect to see a "real" shuttle. In other words what locations will people be most disappointed to find only a replica. My opinion is JSC, KSC, Smithsonian (I consider Enterprise a test article)

Accessibility - Where can the maximum number of people see it? Well Times Square is probably on top, but JSC, KSC and Smithsonian are high up there also.

Inspiration - Some have suggested that only space geeks go to JSC and KSC, so why not put the Shuttles in less traditional settings so that more people (especially children) can become interested in space travel. I think that is a very interesting angle that I hadn't thought of, although I would guess that less than 1% of visitors to JSC and KSC are actual certified space geeks.

Preservation - Who will best take care of the shuttles. Unfortunately JSC and KSC are not at the top of the list. In fact they may be near the bottom. Anyone seen the Saturn 1B in the Rocket Garden lately? The CM is starting to literally fall apart. It's a travesty how Delaware North is letting it decay and NASA doesn't seem to care.

I still hold my opinion that it should be Smithsonian, JSC and KSC (only if they take of them) and move Enterprise to Dayton. But I do see and understand the other viewpoints better now.

"Unfortunately JSC and KSC are not at the top of the list"

Have you seen the Saturn V at KSC lately? That exhibit has set the standard for how these vehicles should be displayed.