Progress 38 Has Telemetry Glitch

Oh so the Russians make mistakes too? Wow to hear some of the "don't worry about the HSF gap" people they can do no wrong. I'm sure the constellationphiles will jump all over this one with a big SEE I TOLD YOU SO! For those people I say this proves nothing but going into space is hard and docking 2 space craft although done many times has it challenges and dangers. That being said would a space shuttle had miss the station with humans at the controls to make course correction on the fly? I doubt it. If anything this should strengthen the resolve of NASA and its " commercial partners " to fill said gap in HSF.

Damn the Gravity!

P.s. Mr.Glenn this is not a catastrophic malfunction although the potential for one was present.

"If anything this should strengthen the resolve of NASA and its 'commercial partners' to fill said gap in HSF."

If anything, this should strengthen the resolve of posters to learn something about what they're talking about. While Progress nominally uses an autonomous docking system, it has the capability for manual override, from controllers on the Earth. In that backup capability, people *are* there controlling it. But they're just there virtually. There is absolutely no need for onboard human pilots.

Now, the modern generation Soyuz uses the same autonomous docking system so, in fact, even for those craft carrying people, those people aren't necessary there as pilots.

Hey, I like gravity!

So your saying ( laughs) someone virtually controlling a space craft from the ground has the same reaction time as someone actually being there? Like there is no delay ? at all? I guess your a NASA engineer or someone who designed and the guidance system or automatic docking system? NO? So your saying astronauts are just passengers ? not pilots? mindless cargo? Hey I'm not insulted but I think of a few astronauts who would probably be.

Damn the Politics!

What I'm saying (and I'm not laughing) is that a person virtually controlling a Progress or Soyuz spacecraft from the ground during rendezvous and docking maneuvers with ISS has enough reaction time to get the job done. The approach velocities are quite small. It depends on the comm path, but in LEO, with well placed ground stations, the latency can be pretty modest.

Yes, I'm saying that astronauts on Soyuz can be just passengers. After all, Soyuz is just a passenger vehicle taking them up to ISS. The value of these astronauts is on ISS.

Whether they are mindless cargo probably depends on their respective intelligence and, perhaps, their cranial capacity. I too can think of a few astronauts who might be insulted by saying that they are not needed as pilots, but I can think of a whole lot who would not.

Whether I design AR&D systems or not, I can respect the smarts of those who did, in Progress and Soyuz, make what is largely a very successful one.

I should not hesitate to point out that if a Soyuz headed for ISS with humans on board lost telemetry, as this Progress did, those folks would be on their way back down, and not approaching ISS.

This is a routine telemetry glitch, nothing more. It does not change the argument for or against replacing the shuttle.

What incidents like these should do is give us some perspective on the longevity of any outpost, and help us carefully consider our long term goals in space.

Now let me clarify, I am not for keeping the shuttle and I know it needs a replacement.I want Methuselah (STS) in a museum. It has served us well and is a marvelous machine but its been time for 15 or more years to replace it or at the very least begin plans to replace it. Nor do I believe Cx was the answer.

As far as astronauts and their " respective intelligence" ?

I can say confidently that the majority of astronauts are pretty smart people most being pilots and scientist.

That being said , If I won the lottery I would be first in line to get on a Russian rocket.

You guys should both learn a little about what you are talking about. When manual override is needed for docking, Progress is not controlled from the ground, it is controlled via the TORU system on board the ISS, by the station commander.

A failure of this type could certainly occur at a more critical time in the rendezvous. While several factors contributed to the Progress collision with the Mir, another similar incident is not impossible. The optimal strategy for docking of unmanned cargo carries utilizes primarily autonomous guidance, not direct control by telemetry.

But the failure illustrates the poor choice made in eliminating Shuttle before a superior successor system is operational, since it leaves only one path for support of the ISS.

The question of whether Orion is an appropriate replacement for Shuttle is separate. Shuttle was designed to support a space station, thus its name. It carries seven crew, the airlock and RMS, and 22,000 poinds of cargo even to the high-inclination ISS orbit. It lnds with precision on a runway.

Orion was designed as a successor to the Apollo capsule, not the Shuttle. It weighs 25 tons but carries only four astronauts and tiny amount of supplies. It plops into the ocean and is ignominously hauled out. It is hard to imagine how it could be more inappropriate for ISS logistics. Indeed it had no such mission. Mike Griffin insisted that as soon as ISS was completed, it should be abandoned along with Shuttle. The abandonment of ISS, followed by the morphing of Orion from "Apollo on Steroids" to the "Successor to Shuttle" is one of the more bizarre pieces of smoke and mirrors in NASA history. But no one questioned Griffin, at least not in public.

"This is a routine telemetry glitch, nothing more. It does not change the argument for or against replacing the shuttle."

that idea might change if, like what happened to Mir, a Progress ship were to crash into ISS...

I watched the two spacecraft orbit overhead from Seattle last night (11:40pm). The Progress 38 was leading by about a 20 to 30 deg angle. That means they were separated by about 100 miles.

When manual override is needed for docking, Progress is not controlled from the ground, it is controlled via the TORU system on board the ISS, by the station commander.

Thank you. That is correct. It is also the case that even through TORU, there is some latency, of order a second or two, but that is not considered a problem.

As far as astronauts and their " respective intelligence" ? I can say confidently that the majority of astronauts are pretty smart people most being pilots and scientist.

As would I. I was responding to your question that the astronauts might be "mindless cargo". I was pretty surprised at that question.

Not to rub it in, but the autonomous Progress docking was successfully accomplished on the second try. At best, had we had human pilots on the supply vehicle, perhaps it could have done it on the first try. Also perhaps we would have tried hard to be proud at how much cash we would have shoveled out to do it that way.

I believe strongly in the value of humans in space, but let's be honest about what ways they really offer value.

I always like how people say "not to rub it in" or " I don't want to say I told you so but" point taken . ;) But at the very least a got a "perhaps it could have been done on the first try with people" I can live with that ty:D

I am happy they were able to fix the problem and get it docked and I'm sure the residents of the ISS are equally as happy.

Congrats go out to all teams involved.

I was surprised by your respective intelligence vs cranial capacity comment .

I to believe strongly in HSF as well. I also believe in unmanned probes which NASA has proven it does pretty damn good. Maybe until the fires over HSF subside they should focus more on unmanned probes. Its cheaper safer and well cheaper and safer is all you really need. LOL

I would like to see a few more missions of this type. Again LCROSS/LRO proved minimal cost can yield a very substantial bang for the buck so to speak . Although there wasn't much of a bang with LCROSS, I think that was more because of the CGI provided by NASA and the expectations that came with it.