The Grand Master of Foot-In-Mouth Speaks

Actually, I agree with Mike and I see nothing wrong with his use of "perversion" because that's what it is.

I think it's about time for Bolden to step down. I know he has somewhat softened the Muslim world statement, but he's basically been ineffective as a leader of NASA.

Hmm... ""NASA was chartered by the 1958 Space Act to develop the arts and sciences of flight in the atmosphere and in space and to go where those technologies will allow us to go,"" I'd like to see that sentence in the Space Act... I thought NASA was to build the biggest most expensive useless rockets in the whole Universe?

HUH? Mike is right. So since when does citing the 1958 Space Act garner a snide comment about "elevating the conversation? Use of the word "perversion" may be strong... but yet very descriptive.

I thought the WH was supposed to put an end to Yankee Imperialism and apologize. Mr. Boldin's comments are arrogant and condescending instead of apologetic.

Mike just says this stuff to screw with Keith. No one else cares what he says anymore.

@ common sense
"I thought NASA was to build the biggest most expensive useless rockets in the whole Universe?"

Perhaps you share the same confusion Obama & Bolden have. If Nasa's purpose is to help Muslims feel good about themselves, then you're right. Nasa's rockets are useless. But as Mike points out, that is a perversion of Nasa's purpose.

"Oh great. Leave it to Mike Griffin to get on the train to crazy town and use the words "NASA", "perversion", and "Muslim" in the same sentence. Thanks for elevating the conversation, Mike."

The Agency's "foremost" goal pertaining to a particular religion isn't absurd to you? It's simply stunning to see people circling the wagons for the current Administration after a comment like that.

I guess Griffin will not let any opportunity pass him by to attack his successor. The issue isn't whether Griffin is right-the issue is by continuing to criticize the current leadership team he undermines it-and the agency itself. When will this all end?

"Perversion" is strong language, but it fits, and suits the level of alarm felt by many of us who feel that NASA's mission of exploration is being diluted.

As to the Media Matters headline,

Yet again, an Obama official says "Muslim," right-wing media freak-out follows

How silly. Assuming comments on NASA Watch on this matter are not mostly coming from "right-wingers", there seems to be general discomfort among many of us with diverting NASA resources from missions of exploration to missions of diplomacy.

He isn't solely attacking his direct successor, but rather the administration instead. He is defending Bolden if anything:

For all his unhappiness with the new policy, Griffin says blame for the situation does not belong with NASA administrator Charles Bolden, whom Griffin calls “one of the best human beings you will find.” “When I see reports in the media excoriating Charlie for this position, that blame is misplaced,” Griffin says. “It belongs with the administration. That is where policy for NASA is set. The NASA administrator does not set policy for NASA, the administrator carries it out.”

I feel like media is making this more of a dogfight between Bolden and Griffin than they actually are. Neither one of them publicly speaks bad about the other individual directly.

Unlike you I am absolutely not confused. You clearly have a very limited view of what NASA is supposed to do. If you don't understand why they are trying an outreach of this nature to this part of the world you clearly have no idea of what is going on outside the US. Travel and learn.

NASA's Ares are useless. Yes they are useless. They don't even exist and they cost us $9B!!! How much was the trip here? What is the potential return?

Try and open your mind.

Mike Griffin has jumped the shark. He had his chance and he failed. He should try to face that.

Let's not forget.. Griffin didn't get fired, he quit. He knew his program was not working and he bailed out.

Now he's standing behind the fence and making ugly remarks at the team. He's like a high school football player that quit the team because he knew he was probably going to get cut. And instead of facing up to his own shortcomings he is being snarky to those people trying to clean up the mess he left.

Okay, now that we have established and have been distracted by politics as usual. Can we please get back to what exactly the next step is going to be and what part of the universe we want to explore?

It is like kindergarten, you can have chocolate, strawberry or vanilla ice cream, but you can't have all three.

Also, it is a lot easier asking other countries for money, when they know what exactly it is they are paying to get.

That NASA should engage in outreach to Muslim nations isn't the issue, IMHO. the issue is making it one of the top 3 priorities of a NASA Administrator. Seems, on the face of it, to be misplaced emphasis when the emphasis should be on assuring U.S. space leadership in robotic and HSF. Same would be true with the emphasis on inspiring young people. if NASA pursues interesting missions, isn't that supposed to be inspirational?

When will it all end? It's getting pretty clear where it will end.

Remarks like what I'm hearing here and elsewhere about Bolden, Obama, and space leadership in general simply point to the plug getting pulled on the whole thing. I mean, we as American citizens no longer want to trust an elected leader to lead. It's gotta be "my way or the highway", in which case, it'll probably be the highway. If you don't want to be led, then it's not going to happen. Period.

I was not fond of President Bush, but I signed on to Constellation, and found the best I could in his vision for space exploration. There was a lot of good stuff there. I was willing to be led. Of course, once that architecture didn't work, for various reasons, I was willing to be led by someone else who was in a position to lead. Someone who at least had the trust of a majority of the voters, to try something different. Willing to give another option a chance.

Bottom line -- it'll end when human spaceflight is no longer a federal enterprise. Because we as an American public are not willing to do what it takes for it to be a federal enterprise, which is to have a conversation, and then be led. We had that conversation last year. The fallacy is that politics determines everything in a federal enterprise, and people don't want to be led anymore. That's why NASA human space flight will fail. That's why Elon & Co. will succeed. Because he doesn't have to listen to crap like this. If he wants to pitch his vision to Muslim countries, then he's damned well able to do so.

OK, maybe Bolden doesn't need to be visiting Muslim countries to sell us on them. But why the hell is this so important? Why is it worth making us behave the way we do? This is simply not a major space exploration policy issue. It's just political posturing and grandstanding. And when the previous Administrator, who should know better, can't help but pile on, the credibility of this nation to do something we can be proud of just really fades. . I'm sure the Muslim nations will take note of this!

Just another reason to feel sorry for Mike.

I couldn't agree more with Closet Rebel. For an administration attempting to mend fences, our "helping" predominantly Muslim nations feel good about their contributions is condescension at an appalling level. How would we feel if France offered to help us to feel good about our contributions to the arts? For heaven's sake, administration please read the Space Act and let the professional diplomats do diplomacy.

I miss Mike!

I've read a ton of posts on NASA Watch today and I can not believe how quotes like this are on here: "I thought NASA was to build the biggest most expensive useless rockets in the whole Universe?", "The Grand Master of Foot-In-Mouth Speaks", and "Mike just says this stuff to screw with Keith. No one else cares what he says anymore."

Don't you realize how childish you sound? Where did the adult conversation go on here? If I were role playing as a cop would, I would say that we need to get off the parent/child kick and behave like adults. We'd get a heck of a lot more accomplished. Don't you think?

Why would that be mutually exclusive? I mean diplomacy and US space preeminence?

Also why misplaced emphasis when NASA ran Constellation to the ditch when people used to think it was NASA's role to perform?

When you fail at a job in real life you usually get a second chance at a different assignment. Not always though. NASA should take all it can at this stage.

How is it NASA's mandate to make the Muslim word feel better? Since February of this year NASA has been pulled further and further away from what it's supposed to be doing - aerospace research and space exploration.

It seems the current administration is trying to make the agency another tool for its political agenda. Common sense is a space program that actually does aerospace research - for the nation that funds it.

Does anyone remember when NASA meant space exploration? To hear the current NASA leadership tell it, NASA is about world peace, technology development, education, feeding the hungry, diplomacy and too many other things to mention here. We have other agencies for these tasks - NOAA, USAID, DARPA and the U.S. Department of State.

NASA has been forced off course and needs to be put back to work with what it's supposed to be working on - remember NASA stands for the National (as in United States) Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Having an open mind and using common sense means that you stick to the basics and stop trying to make NASA all things to all people.

"We'd get a heck of a lot more accomplished. Don't you think?"

You believe Griffin is acting as an adult? Is this whole thing an adult conversation?

@common sense: As Keith once told me, "Two wrongs does not make a right?"

I think this whole thing is an organized distraction. We should be talking about what HLV to build, instead we are being misdirected away from talking about substance. Much like when Bush had congress wasting time on baseball steroids instead of trying to avoid the impending financial collapse.

Lets get back to substance and force congress to decide on a HLV and to start building it now.

I totally agree with Mike.

Bolden's comment on Al Jazeera was trivial PR and the reaction to it completely off scale.

What is important is where NASA is going and when it will be decided, and how much damage is done while we wait.

Speaking for all Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Jewish, and Buddhist space workers.... THIS IS SAD!!!

I suppose dumping on Griffin gives some folks joy but doesn't it divert from the real problem? The incompetence of the Obama administratioon.

I am not sure why there is a link to a Media Matters blog. These guys are left-wing nuts. They try to discredit Fox News all day long. That seems to be the only purpose of that angry-left website.

People are taking this nonsense way too seriously!

Humbly submitted-
http://nasaengineer.com/?p=710

Yes I know. But look. This WH had convened a discussion among adults: The Augustine Committee. Those of us who think they did a good job were cast in the anti-HSF category. The leader of them all is Mike Griffin. Griffin was given a chance, a golden one, to make something happen and he er f..ed up. Such is life. He does not have his say anymore and he does not deserve his say considering how he is acting. If he were any smart (regardless of the number of degrees) he'd support the new direction and try and participate actively and constructively. But then what would happen to his position in Alabama? What would Shelby say? Is that it? Or is he that obtuse? You tell me.

Who gave you that charter????

How is this any different than having NASA land men on the Moon to demonstrate a superior handling on space w.r.t. Soviets?

Or building an International Space Station that seems to do little except be international, be in space, and be a station?

Apollo-Soyuz?

NASA's biggest, grandest human space flight projects have been nothing but international relations, whether its making them feel inferior or welcome.

common sense: "You clearly have a very limited view of what NASA is supposed to do. If you don't understand why they are trying an outreach of this nature to this part of the world you clearly have no idea of what is going on outside the US. Travel and learn."

I am not saying there aren't issues going on outside the US. You clearly have a very unlimited view of what NASA is supposed to do, and it's thinking like that that litters NASA's budget with over $700 million in pork barrel spending. Why, out of all the government agencies, is it NASA's job to do outreach to Muslim nations? Why not the Grain Inspection, Packers and Stockyards Administration? The Arctic Research Commission? Or are you saying that all government agencies should help out those poor Muslims with their low self esteem?

"NASA's Ares are useless. Yes they are useless. They don't even exist and they cost us $9B!!!"

The $9 billion is not only for Ares. It's for Constellation. And you're being intentionally dense when you say the Ares doesn't exist. There is obviously the Ares-1X. Not an Ares-1, but it is an Ares.

Proponents of Obama Space like to refer to the Augustine Commission report as their justification for supporting it.  Well, Augustine gave 8 options: 1, 2, 3, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B and 5C.  (See  http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/384767main_SUMMARY%20REPORT%20-%20FINAL.pdf).  The problem with Obama Space is that Mr. Obama didn’t choose any of these options.  Instead he basically chose option 5B minus the EELV and refueling, leaving NASA with nothing to do in HSF.  His decision fails to preserve and expand NASA’s HSF engineering capability or close the “gap”.  He gambles it all on the promise of commercial space and international cooperation.  Resistance to Obama Space isn’t a result of the obviously incompetent roll out of it (or Charles Bolden’s recent attempt at Muslim diplomacy) but rather because it is an inferior plan that doesn’t even follow one of Augustine’s options.  If Mr. Obama had chosen either option 4B or 5C, he would have achieved most of his HSF objectives and there would be much less resistance to his plan.  We would be well on our way to viable commercial HSF, an HLV for the near term and a promise of NASA missions beyond earth orbit.  Instead there is a mess that, lacking any compromise by Mr. Obama, Congress will be forced to sort out.

"You clearly have a very unlimited view of what NASA is supposed to do, and it's thinking like that that litters NASA's budget with over $700 million in pork barrel spending."

No I don't. And not it is not why there is $700M in pork. There is pork to keep people employed to get votes. I think it is pretty clear.

"Why, out of all the government agencies, is it NASA's job to do outreach to Muslim nations?"

First let's say it is not solely limited to Muslim nations. But in those nations there is very little coming form the USA that has some possible positive bearing. Certainly not DoD, not State Dept... DoE? So NASA is one of those things that derive respect and admiration, or was? The US is using (one of) its crown jewels to build bridges with nations that really are hostile to us. Could it work? I don't know. I know it won't if we don't try. It is very little investment. It shows good will. Come on! I am sure you can see that when you're off the WH-kills-HSF thing.

"Why not the Grain Inspection, Packers and Stockyards Administration? The Arctic Research Commission? "

Are you saying that these have the same prestige as NASA has?

"Or are you saying that all government agencies should help out those poor Muslims with their low self esteem?"

Ever travelled to a Muslim nation? Talk about being dense. "Low" self esteem? Stop using others words and go make up your minds to one of those nations. Then come back and argue. In the mean time you are just parroting others.

"The $9 billion is not only for Ares. It's for Constellation. And you're being intentionally dense when you say the Ares doesn't exist. There is obviously the Ares-1X. Not an Ares-1, but it is an Ares."

So what if it is for Constellation? The whole thing is a failure even if there are a few bright spots. Do you know the difference between Ares I and Ares IX? Ares do not exist, be it Ares I or Ares V. Yeah we just flew an autonomous SRB. Big deal.

I think what is being lost is that what Mr. Bolden did on Al-Jazeera - is supposed to be done by the State Department - not NASA.

In fact since February it seems NASA is being told to do things that fall under the purview of USAID, DARPA, DOE, DOT, NOAA and the State Department.

Simple question - do any of you remember when NASA was about space exploration and aerospace research?

Toss around all the negative comments you want - but it's the National (not international) Aeronautics (not outreach) and Space (not stop Global Warming and produce green jobs) Administration. It's as simple as that.

I live in Florida and I find it a bit sad that so many groups are trying to move soon-to-be former space workers - AWAY from space jobs. I was at a forum yesterday that was all about getting shuttle workers to be auto mechanics and have them do anything - except aerospace work.

It appears that a lot is being made out of this but in reality it's just another indication that NASA is off track.

@ Frank Sietzen: "I guess Griffin will not let any opportunity pass him by to attack his successor."

Seriously, you want to make that comment in SUPPORT of Obama's policies? Don't see any irony in that?

Mike is exactly right, and there was no call for him to be slammed for saying the truth just because some don't like him. The point IS whether he was right or not, not something else. I hope he continues to criticize this disasterous leadership(if you can call it that) that is destroying the agency.

common sense: "The US is using (one of) its crown jewels to build bridges with nations that really are hostile to us. Could it work? I don't know. I know it won't if we don't try. It is very little investment. It shows good will. Come on! I am sure you can see that when you're off the WH-kills-HSF thing."

I think I'll stay on the WH-kills-HSF thing since Nasa's "foremost" mission is now to to improve relations with the Muslim world. Getting back to what Mike said: this is a "perversion" of NASA's original mission to explore space.

>>Why not the Grain Inspection, Packers and Stockyards Administration? The Arctic Research Commission?

"Are you saying that these have the same prestige as NASA has?"

I'm saying, as you seem to imply, as long as it's low cost, and it might have a chance of working, why not? Don't know until we try right? And it shows good will. Ahhh there's so much feel good progressivism in that I just get all tingly inside. Anyway... back to space flight.

>>The $9 billion is not only for Ares. It's for Constellation.

"So what if it is for Constellation?"

What do you mean so what if the $9 billion you said was being spent on Ares was actually for Constellation? You really don't know the difference?

>> And you're being intentionally dense when you say the Ares doesn't exist. There is obviously the Ares-1X. Not an Ares-1, but it is an Ares.

"Ares do not exist, be it Ares I or Ares V. Yeah we just flew an autonomous SRB. Big deal."

This from someone who doesn't even know the difference between Ares and Constellation. The Ares does currently exist - in the form of Ares IX. Ares IX, I and V are all just large SRBs, but that doesn't mean there's no Ares.